Gun Retention

[Ranger+P+]

Watching the news last night, I saw a story on a local constable who while eating supper at a local restaurant, a man tried to grab his sidearm. A tussle ensued, with the constable finally restraining the man with no injuries. This made me think: for those of us who carry a gun for a living, this is a everyday real threat. We try to counter this by using retention holsters. But, for those of us who carry concealed, should this be something we prepare for in our drills? I say yes. There are some who say, that even those who carry concealed should carry in a IWB or OWB Level III retention holster of some type--I do not agree on this, for the reason of accesibility and speed. I would argue that a civilian could learn to be as fast with a retention holster as his normal holster (say a yaqui slide like mine), but with quite a bit of training. But the real point here is staying concealed at all times--and that is a matter of an overhaul in not only your wardrobe, but your lifestyle--it is indeed a way of life.

Stay Salty out there.

[srothstein]

Anyone carrying a weapon should know some retention drills. But I think the CHL has a much lower probability of needing a retention holster. Concealment is a big part of the retention.

But, anyone with a weapon definitely needs to know how to keep it when they draw it and someone jumps for the gun instead of freezing or panicking. The really bad guys out there are not nearly as afraid of the gun or being shot as the sane guys are. They also practice disarming cops in prisons so they know they can disarm most civilians. Just as most cops know (but probably do not practice) techniques for disarming a suspect, some crooks know this too. Just as the cops practice retention drills for this along with the holster grab retention, CHL's need to at least practice this retention drill.

Just my opinion of course.

[Ranger+P+]

For a long time now, I have been a proponent of a better training curriculum in order to get your CHL. I know a person could take this point to far, but I think a progressive training program needs to be set up so a man or woman could easily progress. The subject of weapons retention is a great example--it drives the point home there is always one loaded gun at a confrontation-YOURS! This is indeed a real world threat, and one I have seen end badly for some. Like I tell so many of people I know wanting to get their CHL, I tell them to not only budget for a decent gun and holster rig, but also for some good training!

Any good self-defense program needs to focus on Combatives--in my line of work, I have seen close-quarters fiasco's, and they are not pretty. Often time, in order for a man to have time to draw his gun, an empty hand strike would need to be thrown. This falls right into line of retention techniques and how to counter most any move someone would make for your weapon.

Stay Salty--Good to be Back Home.

[boomerang]

For a long time now, I have been a proponent of a better training curriculum in order to get your CHL.

By similar reasoning, we should have a literacy test in order to vote.

[sceneshopninja]

By similar reasoning, we should have a literacy test in order to vote.

Any sort of competency tests would be a vast improvement... like knowing how to work the voting machines, or the names of the candidates.

But to keep it on topic; It would be nice to have some gun retention / hand-to-hand self defense training accompanying CHL courses.

[flintknapper]

For a long time now, I have been a proponent of a better training curriculum in order to get your CHL.

I respectfully disagree.

There is plenty of "training" available outside the curriculum of CHL.... that people may pursue.

The object of the Texas CHL standards (Probably the most stringent of the states) is to require a reasonable "minimum" of skills in order to pass. In thus doing, the largest number of people will pass and be allowed to add a much needed level of force to their personal defense plan.

Yes, everyone should be strongly encouraged to seek out additional training and information. But, to require that folks learn (and possibly demonstrate) retention techniques, etc...is to segregate the physically fit from those who are not. I believe both groups are entitled to protect themselves.

I think a better answer would be for training institutes to offer discounted courses for those with CHL's and let them get "real" training (to the degree that they are physically able).

There are several of us here capable of teaching basic disarms and retention of both handguns and long-arms. Perhaps in the future a seminar of some sort might be put together to teach those interested in learning some basic techniques.

But, personally....I will not support anything that makes it more difficult for the average person to get his/her CHL.


Just my .02

[seamusTX]

[Flintknapper beat me in the typing race.]

I agree that the principle of weapon retention is important.

I don't agree that the formal requirements for getting a CHL should be increased. After more than 12 years and nearly 300,000 people with Texas CHLs, there has not been a problem. There are several million people in the U.S. with some form of concealed weapon license, nearly all with less stringent requirements than Texas, and there's no problem.

The main reason is that we don't arrest criminals. If a CHL holder draws, the attacker should be incapacitated a couple of seconds later.

We also don't want to encourage the false idea that a criminal will take your weapon and use it on you.

All just IMHO, of course.

- Jim

[Charles L. Cotton]

I'll have to join the dissenting voices on changing the shooting proficiency requirement for CHLs. This was a major issue during the fight to pass CHL in Texas. There was a very real concern that the proficiency requirement would be set so high that most people couldn't pass, so it was agreed that the requirement could be no higher than that required for Texas peace officers. (This is the State requirement, not individual departments.) If the leadership at DPS ever changes and if this results in an anti-CHL attitude, it would be very simple for DPS to change the proficiency requirement to something that all but the most accomplished pistoleros would not be able to pass.

People who know me or who have read my posts on training know I strongly advocate training and practice, so I do not deny its value for people who carry defensive handguns. However, if a person chooses not be practice or to train, they still have a right to be able to use a handgun to protect themselves, whatever their skill level. The strongest argument against a required proficiency standard is the fact that some states don't require it at all and there is no evidence that those states have seen an increase in accidental shooting of innocent third parties.

In my opinion, people should get as much training as they can afford in terms of money and time and they should practice what they are taught, but it's ultimately their decision. Requiring advanced training might better prepare a CHL for a fight, but attending the Skip Barber race car driving school would better prepare people to drive on Texas roads, but we're not about to require that to get a drivers license.

Chas.

[Xander]

I agree with Flint, Jim, and Charles. Training is good, and should be sought by anyone who carries. Training should not be mandatory.

[Ranger+P+]

It looks like the good folks in this forum took me wrong--I am in no way wanting to make it harder for folks to get their CHL, me of all people is one the biggest advocate of 2nd ammendment rights. I applaud the boards quick response to my suggestion, however, I am on your side and I feel you misunderstood me. In my previous post, I stated I would like to see a curriculum laid out for the CHL holder to follow AT THEIR OWN PACE to improve their skills. Believe me, if it were up to me, I would want all people over the age of 21 to be armed, including college students to carry on State University grounds. Simply put, the need for advanced training needs to be pushed because I have seen personally people who think just because they carry a firearm, they have nothing else to worry about--NOT TRUE. That is all I was saying.

You also must understand in my line of work, training is a way of life--I see so many armed citizens and friends of mine who really have no clue other than punching hole in paper on the weekends-- and that is what concerns me. II hope you guys udnerstand where I am coming from.

Stay Safe.

[Ranger+P+]

I meant to respond to Seamus's comment "The false ideal that a criminal will take your gun and use it on you".

Seamus, you cannot be serious. Criminals practice these gun grabbing skills everyday in prision. If you do not think someone can take your gun away from you and use it on you you are dead wrong. People seem to think that because they carry concealed, I do not have to worry about that, you are missing the whole point if you think that way. My whole point in talking about advanced training was the attitude presented here--it could never happen to me. WRONG.

Lets get real here fellas. I have seen men in the top shape of their lives get bushwacked and have their weapons taken from them and used on them, and these are pros.

Retention needs to be trained on once our CHL is attained, no question. It is not a false ideal it is the real world.

Stay Salty.

[seamusTX]

Ranger, the anti-RKBA folk keep saying that "civilians" (meaning non-LEOs) will have their weapons taken from them by criminals. I have seen this in cheesy TV shows. The defender in these fictional cases is always a woman whose hands are shaking.

I have never heard of a non-LEO defender on the street having his weapon taken by a criminal, even in open-carry states.

The needs of police, guards, and the military are much different from a non-LEO who is carrying concealed.

- Jim

[Ranger+P+]

Seamus

I in no way am trying to give ammo to the anti-RKBA, my point however, and I am sure any cops in here will back me up--if you carry a gun, you need to know how to handle an attempted gun grab--it is part of being armed. Concealed or not. Granted--I do carry a gun for a living, but I am also a CHL holder, and I drill on a very simple counter to a gun grab I am sure the LEO in this forum are familiar with: The Pin & Spin. If you are intersted Seamus, I would be glad to show or describe this counter to you--it is simple and effective.

Stay Safe.

[flintknapper]

It looks like the good folks in this forum took me wrong--I am in no way wanting to make it harder for folks to get their CHL, me of all people is one the biggest advocate of 2nd ammendment rights. I applaud the boards quick response to my suggestion, however, I am on your side and I feel you misunderstood me. In my previous post, I stated I would like to see a curriculum laid out for the CHL holder to follow AT THEIR OWN PACE to improve their skills. Believe me, if it were up to me, I would want all people over the age of 21 to be armed, including college students to carry on State University grounds. Simply put, the need for advanced training needs to be pushed because I have seen personally people who think just because they carry a firearm, they have nothing else to worry about--NOT TRUE. That is all I was saying.

You also must understand in my line of work, training is a way of life--I see so many armed citizens and friends of mine who really have no clue other than punching hole in paper on the weekends-- and that is what concerns me. II hope you guys udnerstand where I am coming from.

Stay Safe.

I guess I’m still confused (not hard to do). I admit.. my comprehensive reading skills often leave something to be desired, but your post (as written) seems to imply a “requirement�.

Ranger+P+ wrote:

For a long time now, I have been a proponent of a better training curriculum in order to get your CHL.

Then in your next post:

In my previous post, I stated I would like to see a curriculum laid out for the CHL holder to follow AT THEIR OWN PACE to improve their skills

So, I still don’t understand if you are advocating this skill set be required “prior� to issuance of a CHL or simply material to study on your own.. apart from the course?

[texasgirl]

I would be glad to show or describe this counter to you--it is simple and effective.

I think I saw Massad Ayoob show how to do this on Personal Defense TV (Action Plan is my favorite part of the show). I took a one day Krav Maga women's self defense class a few months back and asked the instructor about it. He was going to show me at the end of the class (I was the only one with a CHL) but I was so tired I forgot by the end of the day. If you have direction and maybe a diagram that would be great.