master cast bullet co.-Rainer bullets

[coronel]

Hi I have a question for you all. Has anyone in here tried Mastercast bullet co? I called them up and they said they use Rainer bullets for remanufactured brass. Being that the Rainer bullet is copperplated that is at least in 38 special and 357 magnum, will it open up well and be considered as a man stopper?

[WildBill]

Being that the Rainer bullet is copperplated that is at least in 38 special and 357 magnum, will it open up well and be considered as a man stopper?

No! Plated is not the same as jacketed.

[MoJo]

Hi I have a question for you all. Has anyone in here tried Mastercast bullet co? I called them up and they said they use Rainer bullets for remanufactured brass. Being that the Rainer bullet is copperplated that is at least in 38 special and 357 magnum, will it open up well and be considered as a man stopper?

I have noticed you have posted this question on several forums. Ranier bullets are swaged from soft lead and then copper plated they are as reliable as any other soft lead hollowpoint. They are not jacketed so their performance is purely dependent upon the hardness or softness of the lead they are made from. I reload Ranier bullets for practice and competition use but, I carry "name brand" factory ammo for self defense.

[coronel]

Mojo I didnt know you are so picky if one happens to go to other forums to find information on a certain subject. It sounds like you are bothered by it could be wrong that is me. I am just trying to find an answer that I am ignorant to. I still don't get the right answers sometimes more often than not. But I still appreciate the input. For example, I am ignorant to what you said they perform the same as soft lead bullets. Well to be honest I am ignorant as to how soft lead bullets perform as man stoppers. I know you mentioned to stick to higher level bullets. But,it is just a question and learning experience i am going thru. I am sure I don't know half the things you know. That is why I am a so-called walking question. If that disturbs you I am so sorry. But thank you for your input. Are you going to follow all of my vists to other forums? Just a question Mojo.

[jbirds1210]

Let's keep this about the ammo in question, please.

Jason

[Mike1951]

There are lead cast bullets with no plating. These are usually the least expensive but they do have velocity limits unless a gas check is used. A gas check is a copper cup that is attached to the base of the lead bullet.

The Ranier is a cast bullet that is copper plated. It is recommended to hold them to similar loadings as cast lead bullets.

Then there are jacketed bullets of full metal jacket (FMJ) style, as well as half jacketed soft points and hollow points.

Jacketed bullets are constructed well enough that they can be driven to higher velocities than lead or plated.

When considering a self defense load, the bullet must retain most of its weight, achieve adequate penetration, and expand, ideally forming a large diameter mushroom shape.

Of the premium defensive loads, you can find endless discussion here and elsewhere about what is best. Actually, any of the premium defensive loads will do well.

But I think everyone would agree that the Ranier is an inexpensively constructed bullet suitable only for practice and plinking. It should never be considered for defensive purposes.

[WildBill]

But I think everyone would agree that the Ranier is an inexpensively constructed bullet suitable only for practice and plinking. It should never be considered for defensive purposes.

Expanding a little on Mike1951s comments: Even with gas checks, a cast bullet can't be driven to the same velocity as a jacketed bullet. Also, cast bullets are usually alloyed so they are harder than swaged or "pure" lead bullets so they don't expand as well. The lead core of a jacketed hollow point is softer than a "normal" cast bullet.

[MoJo]

For many years the "Gold Standard" of SD ammo was the .38 Special +P 158 gr Lead Semi Wad Cutter Hollow Point (LSWCHP) also known as the "FBI load." This load is still in production and still performs very well. The Rainier hollow point bullets are basically a soft lead bullet with a thin coat of copper to prevent leading. These bullets should perform at least as well as the FBI load in self defense use.

Personally, I wouldn't use reloads or re-manufactured ammo for self defense unless that is all I had. Both Winchester and Remington load a value line of ammo that is suitable for self defense use. The Winchester USA (White Box) and the Remington UMC lines have good reliable self-defense loads in most calibers.

[WildBill]

For some reason the 158 gr seems to have fallen out of favor for the .357 Mag. When I was handloading I used mostly the 158 gr Keith SWC. It is very accurate. I made my own "hollow points" with a drill. They worked good on jugs of water

[coronel]

Thank you all for such great input on this subject. Mojo took the words out of my mouth when he said that they should perform like the fbi load. Thank you Mojo and everyone for my having a great learning experience.

[Mike1951]

It sounds to me like we failed to get the point across that Ranier bullets should NOT be a choice for self defense.

There is absolutely NO grounds for assuming that the copper plated Ranier will perform as well as a hollow point lead bullet.

Someone shot with them could very well succumb, but they should not be preferred over better performing bullets.

[KD5NRH]

Even with gas checks, a cast bullet can't be driven to the same velocity as a jacketed bullet.

Sure it can; as long as you don't mind your bore looking like you've been shooting black powder loads. I've used cast and swaged bullets in working up loads and general testing, but it does require a lot of brush time afterwards, and in some guns I wouldn't recommend shooting too many before cleaning due to the amount of buildup.

Also, cast bullets are usually alloyed so they are harder than swaged or "pure" lead bullets so they don't expand as well. The lead core of a jacketed hollow point is softer than a "normal" cast bullet.

Of course, if you happen to run across a box of the old "Western Nevada West Coast Bullet" 230gr .45 LRNs, they're nearly as hard as jacketed. I've recovered a couple from clay that, except for the rifling marks, were less than .002 off in any dimension from an unfired one. I had to melt one just to prove to myself that it was really lead: even melted into a little flat disc, it was still really hard to bend or scratch. I never noticed lead buildup from those, and I wouldn't bother looking for HPs made from that alloy.

[WildBill]

Even with gas checks, a cast bullet can't be driven to the same velocity as a jacketed bullet.

Sure it can; as long as you don't mind your bore looking like you've been shooting black powder loads. I've used cast and swaged bullets in working up loads and general testing, but it does require a lot of brush time afterwards, and in some guns I wouldn't recommend shooting too many before cleaning due to the amount of buildup.

Also, cast bullets are usually alloyed so they are harder than swaged or "pure" lead bullets so they don't expand as well. The lead core of a jacketed hollow point is softer than a "normal" cast bullet.

Of course, if you happen to run across a box of the old "Western Nevada West Coast Bullet" 230gr .45 LRNs, they're nearly as hard as jacketed. I've recovered a couple from clay that, except for the rifling marks, were less than .002 off in any dimension from an unfired one. I had to melt one just to prove to myself that it was really lead: even melted into a little flat disc, it was still really hard to bend or scratch. I never noticed lead buildup from those, and I wouldn't bother looking for HPs made from that alloy.

Okay, I'll concede the first point. I'll rephrase. Even with gas checks, it's not recommended to drive cast bullets to the same velocities as jacketed bullets. How's that for weasel words?

Hardness is not the only issue with cast bullets versus jacketed. In addition to being softer than copper, lead has a much lower melting point. Hot gases from the ignition of the gun powder can melt the surface of the lead bullet.

When I cast bullets, I used linotype metal, which was very hard. I never had any leading problems with any of my cast bullets. I even shot cast bullets [at low velocities]in my rifles - .30 M1 Carbine, .308Win and .222 Rem.

And to coronel - It seems like you keep asking the same question until you hear the answer you want to hear. No one here has recommended using cast or swaged bullets as self defense loads. Obviously, no one here can stop you if you wish to do so, but there is no reason to do so.

[coronel]

To Wildbill---You are right I do have the right to ask questions to learn about the rainer bullet and its performance. I have yet to see documentation (proof) of as to the why not to use those bullets for self defense. All I see written is you are not supposed to use them if you will. That to me sir if it bothers you does not answer my question in full. Mr. Wildbill at least speaking for myself I volunteered to go into the Army and volunteered to go to Vietnam. Yes sir my freedom of speech should not be questioned not only because I am a veteran but because I am an American hopefully just like you. If you are an American citizien like I am we both have the right to freedom of speech and should not be questioned or intended to be stopped by other rheterical means. I do thank you for your input sir I do appreciate it. Unless you have proof as to why I shouldnt use this Rainier bullet as self defense (not just you are not supposed to) then don't rheterocially put it if you will in such a way as to stop asking. I am just using --you are not supposed to---as an example of what some people tell me. Thank you for your time.

[Mike1951]

I'm not sure why you're picking on Wildbill.

My responsees were harsher than his.

I concede that there is every chance that the Ranier plated bullet might perform as well as FMJ.

There are some members, a small minority here, who have chosen to carry FMJ for reasons of their own.

Should you wish to carry Ranier plated bullets for self defense, more power to you. But when you don't get the answers that you wanted to hear, don't be so critical. I take some comfort in the fact that your chance of ever being in a self defense situation will likely make it moot anyway.

I know of no factory loadings using the Ranier bullets, so simply using reloads as carry ammo will be looked upon with disfavor by most. I hope you're not so cost conscious that you just won't pay for decent ammunition.

If you insist on using Ranier, try their hollow point offerings, as they should offer at least some expansion.

Good luck to you,