Unlicensed open carry in Texas: a proposal

[frankie_the_yankee]

We have 1 documented incident is which someone who was open carrying was attacked.

How many incidents have NOT happened because someone was open carrying? Kinda hard to get statistics about a crime that ALMOST happened.

Maybe none for all anyone knows. Could be just "a myth". How about producing some statistics as to how often BG's abandon violent crimes they were getting ready to commit because they spotted a non-LEO OCing on the premesis? For all the claims that this happens, or would happen, you would think someone could come up with some numbers.

Who cares if it's "hard"? Haven't you ever heard the expression, "That which does not kill me makes me stronger"?

I would like to take my chances with open carry.

I have no problem with that.

I would like it to be nationwide and with no restrictions what-so-ever.

That would make it too easy for criminals to blend in with LAC's while OCing. That's why I would prefer that people who carry guns in public, whether openly or concealed, obtain shall issue licenses. Since previously convicted criminals wouldn't be able to get such licenses, they would, as now, have to be concerned that any incidental contact with LE was likely to result in them getting thrown in jail for illegally carrying.

If no license were required, a previously convicted criminal or other disqualified person would have excellent chances of bluffing their way through a chance LE encounter. With the risk of jail lowered, more criminals and disqualified persons would carry.

I have stated this obvious fact many times - to no effect. But that's OK. I'll take my consolation in the fact that the people and legislators of the State of Texas appear overwhelmingly to agree with me (going by Chas' inputs that unlicensed OC would not fly here).

"Outlaw Josey Wales" and "High Plains Drifter" were great movies. I can watch either one of them over and over. Josey's wisdom, punctuated with the occassional glob of tobacco juice, just makes a guy feel good. And the way Josey, or The Preacher, handle the period-accurate guns they carry to deal out justice is a sight to behold. Either one makes for a pleasureable way to spend a couple of hours for me.

But in the end, they're just movies.

[KBCraig]

2) In this thread, I have been smeared by the claim that I would be happy to see Obama elected president. If I did something like that, I'd probably be threatened with being thrown off the board.

I can't even begin to count the times you told people they were electing Hillary Clinton if they vote for anyone other than a "leading" GOP candidate.

[KBCraig]

I'm a lot more concerned with making it easy for criminals to blend in with LAC's while carrying guns in public, and the harm that may result from that, than any harm to you from your gun.

Aren't criminals at this very moment carrying guns in public and blending in with LACs? Perhaps where you live they sport neon clothing and flashing strobe lights, but around here we only know criminals by their criminal behavior, whether they're carrying guns or not.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I'm a lot more concerned with making it easy for criminals to blend in with LAC's while carrying guns in public, and the harm that may result from that, than any harm to you from your gun.

Aren't criminals at this very moment carrying guns in public and blending in with LACs? Perhaps where you live they sport neon clothing and flashing strobe lights, but around here we only know criminals by their criminal behavior, whether they're carrying guns or not.

Right now, any criminals carrying guns are taking pains to keep them concealed and are wary of any contact with LEO's. That's because if an LEO finds them carrying a gun with no license, they are gonna get thrown in jail - and they know it.

So every time they go out on the street carrying, they are risking getting caught, charged, and convicted.

Once in a while, one of these dirtballs even manages to get himself shot by a cop, thus doing us all a big favor.

If we had unlicensed open carry, previously convicted criminals and other disqualified persons could openly carry guns and, since no license was needed, the fact that they did not have one would not trigger an arrest in the case of an incidental contact with LE. When a cop runs your license he will get info on any open wants or warrants, but he will not get info on what closed convictions a person might have.

So the risk to the person (of getting busted) of carrying a gun is substantially reduced with unlicensed open carry compared to the risk when there is a license requirement.

[frankie_the_yankee]

2) In this thread, I have been smeared by the claim that I would be happy to see Obama elected president. If I did something like that, I'd probably be threatened with being thrown off the board.

I can't even begin to count the times you told people they were electing Hillary Clinton if they vote for anyone other than a "leading" GOP candidate.

The difference is that if someone votes for a minor party candidate who has zero chance of winning, they are making it easier for a major party candidate to get elected. If the person in question happens to lean towards a conservative/libertarian point of view, where their major party vote would tend to go to a Republican, voting for a minor party candidate instead means one less vote for the Republican, making it just that little bit easier for one of the Democrats to win the election. And if a lot of people (say, a few per cent) did that, it could be enough to make a difference.

That's just a fact. It might be an uncomfortable fact. It might be a fact that Ron Paul supporters, or Ralph Nader supporters, or Bob Barr supporters, particularly find uncomfortable. But it's still a fact.

In contrast, quoting me as stating that I favor shall issue licensing for carrying guns, and then saying that I will sure be happy when President Obama takes over (who opposes non-LEO's carrying guns, and who opposes shall issue licensing, and who says that the 2A is an individual right while also saying that local government should be able to ban the possession of guns if they want to), is a smear.

[CleverNickname]

If we had unlicensed open carry, previously convicted criminals and other disqualified persons could openly carry guns and, since no license was needed, the fact that they did not have one would not trigger an arrest in the case of an incidental contact with LE. When a cop runs your license he will get info on any open wants or warrants, but he will not get info on what closed convictions a person might have.

I'd be interested if there were any stats on criminals open carrying in Arizona (probably the most open carry-friendly state IMO), or failing that, any other state where unlicensed open carry is legal. Otherwise this fear that criminals will start open carrying just seems like a lot of conjecture on your part.

FWIW I'd rather have a criminal open carrying a firearm vs. concealing it.

[frankie_the_yankee]

If we had unlicensed open carry, previously convicted criminals and other disqualified persons could openly carry guns and, since no license was needed, the fact that they did not have one would not trigger an arrest in the case of an incidental contact with LE. When a cop runs your license he will get info on any open wants or warrants, but he will not get info on what closed convictions a person might have.

I'd be interested if there were any stats on criminals open carrying in Arizona (probably the most open carry-friendly state IMO), or failing that, any other state where unlicensed open carry is legal. Otherwise this fear that criminals will start open carrying just seems like a lot of conjecture on your part.

Unfortunately, that would be a stat that doesn't exist.

If a criminal OC's, encounters an LEO (say at a traffic stop) and the LEO has no way of knowing the person is a previously convicted criminal or disqualified person, nothing happens, nothing is reported, and no statistic is generated.

That's why we need to use our powers of analysis and deductive logic to try to predict the results of this or that policy change. Statistics are not always available.

FWIW I'd rather have a criminal open carrying a firearm vs. concealing it.

I'd rather have them worrying about getting busted and thrown in prison for illegally carrying a gun than tap dancing down the street while OCing without a care in the world.

[tarkus]

That would make it too easy for criminals to blend in with LAC's while OCing.

You mean like the new law that allowed unlicensed concealed carry in your car?
Did that create a crime wave by making it too easy for criminals to blend in?

Your argument sounds a lot like the "blood in the streets" nonsense we heard
when the CHL law was being debated.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Your argument sounds a lot like the "blood in the streets" nonsense we heard
when the CHL law was being debated.

I think I saw that on a bumper sticker someplace.

[drw]

There are two separate issues being debated here:

1) Open Carrying (which is what this thread mostly turned into)

and

2) Unlicensed open carry.

It seems that much of the problem is the open carry aspect, and there are some good points against OCing.

So, can we explore the idea of unlicensed concealed carry??

[KBCraig]

So, can we explore the idea of unlicensed concealed carry??

Sure. Let's eliminate PC 46. Every bit of it, the entire chapter.

Problem solved.

(No, I'm not being facetious. I do support eliminating the whole chapter.)

[gmckinl]

time out, this gent said it best...

If a politician isn't perfectly comfortable with the idea of his average constituent, any man, woman, or responsible child, walking into a hardware store and paying cash—for any rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything—without producing ID or signing one scrap of paper, he isn't your friend no matter what he tells you.

If he isn't genuinely enthusiastic about his average constituent stuffing that weapon into a purse or pocket or tucking it under a coat and walking home without asking anybody's permission, he's a four-flusher, no matter what he claims...

He may lecture you about the dangerous weirdos out there who shouldn't have a gun—but what does that have to do with you? Why in the name of John Moses Browning should you be made to suffer for the misdeeds of others? Didn't you lay aside the infantile notion of group punishment when you left public school—or the military?

Kind of simple really... any gun, any where. It's a freedom thing. Now back to beating the dead horse. Whack whack whack.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Kind of simple really... any gun, any where. It's a freedom thing. Now back to beating the dead horse. Whack whack whack.

Yeah, real simple. Have fun when the airliner you're on happens to also contain an Al qaeda death squad who got aboard with their MP-5's because under "any gun, anywhere", there was no reason or grounds to prevent them from doing so. (i.e. it was fully legal)

Should be an exciting flight.

[frankie_the_yankee]

So, can we explore the idea of unlicensed concealed carry??

I would say start a thread on the subject.

[Liko81]

The concept of tactical surprise has been well established for thousands of years. It has been used by everyone from Hannibal to Alexander, to Tojo, Rommel, and MacArthur.

If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

For reasons I cannot fathom, many OC advocates deny the existence of this concept, which they tend to catagorize as a "myth".

The only hypothesis I can come up with is that some are so in love with the idea of OC that they do not allow any conflicting information or thought to intrude into their world view.

I have found that there is no point whatsoever in arguing about it. The issue appears to go beyond logic.

That's not the argument OCers (at least the ones I've heard) make. Their argument is that it does not matter what the tactical advantages/disadvantages of OCing are; requiring that those with a gun carry concealed, and then requiring a permit to carry concealed, is an infringement of gun rights. To become a CHL in TX you generally have to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $250. To OC in Virginia costs approximately $0. It's a poll tax; the $250 and a day I can't spend in a classroom are what keep me from carrying concealed. It's elitist and totally contrary to the 2A. That's the argument.