POLL .380 Ammo JHP or FMJ for self defense?

[Bulldog1911]

What we're disagreeing with is the relevance of that bullet stopping - versus the damage that that causes.

We are?

[GrillKing]

How anybody can believe that a bullet which stops in 6" of flesh is somehow better than one (of the same diameter) which goes through 15" is beyond me.

I guess it depends on the damage done by each. A large diameter hole (HP) penetrating 6" in the right place would seem to me to be more effective than a smaller diameter hole (FMJ) going all the way through. Again, depending on what is hit and how much damage is done by each to critical "parts".

As far as the statement about energy expended not being in question, that wasn't clear to me to be the case after reading a multi-page thread. It seemed that some may not have understood that, but I could and have been wrong before.

Also, I qualified most of my statements as (paraphrase): "I don't know". And I don't. I still suspect that, generally, hollowpoints are more effective in all calibers, but again, it depends on each specific shot and where and what it hits. OK, maybe not in FMJ designed to tumble, but that's a different discussion.

[The Annoyed Man]

Oh - we're playing the "what if" game now.

Isn't that the basis for most of these test's and discussions?

I'm not arguing weather Dr. Fackler or Andy know their stuff. In fact, I believe they do. My original statement was in regards to the physics of the bullet exerting all of it's energy. Considering Dr. Fackler's knowledge, I don't think he would argue the laws of physics that state an object at rest has 0 kenetic energy???? Therefore if the bullet has come to rest inside someone/something it has exerted all of it's energy. You can post as many studies as you would like, but that won't change the laws of physics.

How the bullet preforms upon impact is a separate issue.

The issue isn't whether the bullet dissipates energy along the wound track (it is actually dissipating energy as soon as it leaves the muzzle), it's whether or not the dissipated energy is what performs the wounding action. It isn't. It is the combined crushing/tearing of tissue by the bullet along the wound path, and the hydrostatic shock radiating outward from the bullet along the wound path. And the effect of the hydrostatic shock varies according to the type of tissue through which the bullet is passing.

[GrillKing]

Oh - we're playing the "what if" game now.

Isn't that the basis for most of these test's and discussions?

I'm not arguing weather Dr. Fackler or Andy know their stuff. In fact, I believe they do. My original statement was in regards to the physics of the bullet exerting all of it's energy. Considering Dr. Fackler's knowledge, I don't think he would argue the laws of physics that state an object at rest has 0 kenetic energy???? Therefore if the bullet has come to rest inside someone/something it has exerted all of it's energy. You can post as many studies as you would like, but that won't change the laws of physics.

How the bullet preforms upon impact is a separate issue.

The issue isn't whether the bullet dissipates energy along the wound track (it is actually dissipating energy as soon as it leaves the muzzle), it's whether or not the dissipated energy is what performs the wounding action. It isn't. It is the combined crushing/tearing of tissue by the bullet along the wound path, and the hydrostatic shock radiating outward from the bullet along the wound path. And the effect of the hydrostatic shock varies according to the type of tissue through which the bullet is passing.

Agree. And also the expanded diameter of the bullit and the speed it travels. It seems to me that AndyC assumes the diameter of the damage behind the bullit is the same for our examples of 6" penetration and full penetration. If it is I agree with him, full penetration is clearly better. If not, and I suspect that the full penetration diameter of damage (again, FMJ) will be smaller than the 6" penetration diameter of damage of the HP.

In that case, I don't know which is generally more effective, but my non-data based opinion is.... still..... HP....

[NcongruNt]

Currently I carry the LCP as a pocket gun in holster. It has FMJ in it as that is all I have had time to test it with, and it performed flawlessly through 100 rounds. If when I test it with JHP, it performs as well, I will consider buying the Corbon DPX recommended earlier in this thread.

With my 1911 45, I practice with FMJ, but carry JHP. As I think many have said on this forum. Go practice, learn which SD ammunition feeds reliably. Carry the one you find most reliable for the firearm, and don't worry.

I carry Hornady XTP in my LCP. Something about the brass Hornady uses makes for a noticeably smoother feed in the LCP. I told another member here (fenster) about this, and he noted the same observation in his pistol during our next range trip. It also may have to do with the truncated cone shape of the XTP bullet, I'm not certain. All I know is that the LCP loves it, and they're far and above more consistent in POI than any other commercial round I've tried. The Critical Defense rounds are nearly identical in shape, using nickel-plated brass instead. Once I run some through my LCP to make sure they're reliable, that will probably be my carry round (once I cycle through the XTP rounds in my inventory).

[NcongruNt]

And now that I've gone through this entire thread, there's another factor that I haven't seen discussed here. Bear with me, as I've read this long ago, and can't site a specific source at the moment, but I'll see if I can find the report I read.

A JHP has a sharp edge at the front that the FMJ does not. The smooth surface of the JHP leaves less potential for tearing tissue as it passes through the body. The same trajectory with a JHP could tear a vital as it passes along its edge, where a FMJ in the same trajectory could simply push aside the organ. This is the reason the "Silver Tip" bullets were demonized, due to their increased capacity to do significant tearing damage as they passed through a body. This introduces more potential tissue damage, and a higher probability of damage to vitals, more significant bleeding, and incapacitation when a hit is not centered an organ or blood vessel.

Even an unexpanded JHP has a greater capacity to "cut" material over a FMJ. If you've ever compared paper targets at the range between JHP rounds and FMJ rounds in the same caliber, you'll note that the the JHP leave nice neatly cut holes in your target, while the FMJ will leave smaller, less-defined holes without defined edges.
This tearing capacity is why I choose JHP over FMJ in my .380. And as noted in a previous post, my carry round (Hornady XTP) does quite well in penetration tests in comparison to other mainstream JHP ammunition.

That's my two cents, anyway.

[JoeS3]

What we're disagreeing with is the relevance of that bullet stopping - versus the damage that that causes.

We are?

Would you rather be punched in the stomach, stabbed in the stomach with a thumb tack, or stabbed in the stomach with a K-bar? Assuming the same energy in each attack.

[GrillKing]

I wasn't assuming anything; I used the same diameter hole in the same place specifically to keep it simple and to illustrate a point - but if you insist, let's take the example further, then, using the same figures:

And I agreed, if you read my posts, for the same diameter, the longer penetration results in more damage. Everything I stated was either fact or clearly labeled as speculation. There was no woo-woo junk science in anything I said.

Your model assumed the same size hole (see above). But that doesn't reflect reality in comaring FMJ and HP. I think we all agree that FMJ and HP will produce different size holes. Your assumption calculating the volume of the damage with a .35" diameter cylinder for FMJ and .5"cylinder for HP seems off to me. The compression of tissue certainly affects the volume of damaged area. If anything, that model is woo-woo junk science. It appears to me to be far more complex than that.

This thread is getting too personal for me and I'm starting to respond in kind. Therefore I'm pulling myself out of this discussion. I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, that was not my intent, but as an engineer, I don't practice woo-woo junk science. Opinions, yes, science no....

[WickedOwl]

I think I've swapped JHP/FMJ rounds in my LCP 3 or 4 times now thanks to this thread, and I'm still conflicted! I wish I could do my own testing with an accurate dummy of ballistics gel and bone analogue. This is where a Mythbusters lab would come in handy.

[The Mad Moderate]

No bad guy is going to like getting shot, I don't care what anyone says weather it's a .25 FMJ or a .44 mag JHP gettin shot hurts all stats aside. Now considering that JHPs are designed for self defense and FMJs for targets its an easy decision for me to make when it comes to my carry ammo and caliber.

[WickedOwl]

Heck, you have to make up your own mind - but whether you use FMJ or JHP, make sure it's reliable through your weapon first and foremost.

I'd rather have someone else make up my mind for me! I'd be a lot easier!

I've had zero issues with both JHP and FMJ up to now, at with least the brands I bought and the gun I carry. In some ways I suppose we are splitting hairs here, but on the other hand I'd rather not find out the hard way that I chose the wrong type of ammo when I need it to save my life. That's not to say that there aren't situations in which both JHP and FMJ could get the job done.

[G26ster]

Heck, you have to make up your own mind - but whether you use FMJ or JHP, make sure it's reliable through your weapon first and foremost.

I'd rather have someone else make up my mind for me! I'd be a lot easier!

I've had zero issues with both JHP and FMJ up to now, at with least the brands I bought and the gun I carry. In some ways I suppose we are splitting hairs here, but on the other hand I'd rather not find out the hard way that I chose the wrong type of ammo when I need it to save my life. That's not to say that there aren't situations in which both JHP and FMJ could get the job done.

If you're unsure, alternate between FMJ, and JHP in each magazine and hope for the best