Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

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Jumping Frog
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#46

Post by Jumping Frog »

03Lightningrocks wrote:I held a Smith and Wesson M&P 340 the other day. I want one so bad I am thinking of selling a couple of my other guns to get it. .... I have yet to fire one but it was light as a feather and would drop into my pocket.
And those scandium lightweight (13.3 oz) .357 pocket pistols are literally the most unpleasant guns I've ever shot.

I'd rather shoot 100 rounds of full-house .44 magnum in my S&W 629 than shoot 5 rounds of .357 in a lightweight j-frame.

Ask around -- or better yet shoot one -- before you buy.
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#47

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

Jumping Frog wrote:
03Lightningrocks wrote:I held a Smith and Wesson M&P 340 the other day. I want one so bad I am thinking of selling a couple of my other guns to get it. .... I have yet to fire one but it was light as a feather and would drop into my pocket.
And those scandium lightweight (13.3 oz) .357 pocket pistols are literally the most unpleasant guns I've ever shot.

I'd rather shoot 100 rounds of full-house .44 magnum in my S&W 629 than shoot 5 rounds of .357 in a lightweight j-frame.

Ask around -- or better yet shoot one -- before you buy.

Thanks for the heads up! I was worried about that very issue. I had considered renting one before buying. It is a must at this point. I suppose it would be a bit meaner than my 586 in a 6 inch barrel. :fire
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#48

Post by SQLGeek »

I have heard good things about the Ruger LCR .357 with Hogue tamer grips. You may give that a look, I currently am right now.
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#49

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

Excaliber wrote: Experience with investigating real life shootings and participating in the research that goes into choosing an agency's handgun and ammunition makes a world of difference in how the sources quoted above are understood.

This is what I get from the information presented:

1. Shot placement is key. Unless a shot is placed into an area that disrupts the central nervous system, causes massive bleeding, or collapses the skeletal support structure, no handgun round will disable a determined adversary because while the critical body systems are functioning enough to support intentional movement, a person can fight through impairment of those systems if he really wants to.

2. Although the language quoted says shot placement is "everything", that's meant for an audience that understands that it is the most important, but not only, relevant factor. If the statement is taken literally and in isolation, a hit with a BB would achieve the same result as a hit with a .40 S&W. I think most would agree that's clearly not the case.

3. There is no super handgun bullet. No handgun round configured for a gun that can be routinely carried in public can be counted on to disable an adversary with one shot. Most shotgun and rifle rounds, while substantially more damaging, are not 100% either.

4. A knowledgeable defensive tactician should expect his initial shots to fail to stop an attacker, and should continue his active defense until the threat is no longer a threat.

5. With modern expanding ammunition, there is not a great deal of difference in the effectiveness of 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP rounds given identical shot placement. One would not be underarmed with any of them or with any of the similar and in between rounds - .38/.357, .357 Sig, .45 GAP, .44 Special, etc.

6. The article appears to be discussing the effectiveness of rounds for police service, so there's no need to discuss small or low powered rounds that no agency issues for general duty use. The lessons learned shouldn't be extrapolated to apply to those rounds because not all will be valid. Shot placement will still be key, but a .380 will not produce the same results as one of the cartridges listed above when viewed across multiple incidents. If it did, LEO's would carry .380's.
You have a way of posting my thoughts better than I post them. Maybe I should cut back on the emotions as I post...LOL. Excellent post... I agree with every word of it.
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03Lightningrocks
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#50

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

SQLGeek wrote:I have heard good things about the Ruger LCR .357 with Hogue tamer grips. You may give that a look, I currently am right now.
Ruger builds one heck of a good revolver. I had a Redhawk years ago that was one of the toughest revolvers I have ever owned. The torture,(pressures from hot loads), I put that thing through as I learned to reload would be considered criminal! I may take a look at that one. My attraction to that Smith I mentioned was the ability to slip it in my pocket. That being said, I don't want to sacrifice control and consistency.

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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#51

Post by CC Italian »

And those scandium lightweight (13.3 oz) .357 pocket pistols are literally the most unpleasant guns I've ever shot.
Very true! My .38 special +P has more kick then my Glock 20 10mm. I love having people shoot my snub and then the 10mm. They flinch so hard on the first round of 10mm that their lucky to hit paper. Then they stop and say it isn't that bad. Weight is your friend! :thumbs2:
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#52

Post by Skiprr »

Excaliber wrote:4. A knowledgeable defensive tactician should expect his initial shots to fail to stop an attacker, and should continue his active defense until the threat is no longer a threat.
Great post, as always, but I just wanted to comment on this point relative to the discussion.

I also liked snatchel's ranking structure:

1. Shot Placement
2. Amount of rounds put into subject
3. Caliber of rounds put into subject

If there's one thing I've learned about defensive handgun shooting, it's this: everything will be moving. Whether it's at ECQ distances or 20 yards, once weapons come out, nobody stands still. Not the bad guy (or guys), or the defender, or any bystanders, or even, seemingly (stress and adrenaline dump), the rest of your environment as all the actors are moving over and through it. And it happens in 360 degrees.

Without real-world experience like Excaliber has, the only practical way to even try to simulate a portion of this is force-on-force training with Simunition or, to a lesser degree of effectiveness, Airsoft. Nothing about our typical square-range shooting options allow us to practice this sort of thing. Competition like IDPA puts you under a degree of stress and has you moving a bit, but the scenarios are predefined and predictable, and have to be performed all in one direction, toward the berm. And nobody is shooting back.

There's a reason officer-involved shooting statistics show what seems to be an abysmally low hit rate...and it isn't because the average LEO is a far worse shot than you or me. In an SOP-9 update for the years 1990 through 2000, NYPD Gunfight Statistics show these as mean values: NYPD Gunfight Hit Probability: 15%; NYPD Shots Fired per Gunfight: 10.3; NYPD Shots Fired per Officer: 5.2.

Everybody involved in a gunfight is moving. You may think you can stand and take a quality, sighted shot, but the probability is extremely high that you cannot. From the original SOP-9 study: "Good sight alignment is fundamental to target shooting, yet 70% of cases reviewed indicated that no sight alignment was employed when the [service weapon] was fired." The tendency to use sighted shooting increased some as the threat distance increased, but "aiming" was described in the study as widely as merely using the barrel as a pointing reference up to and including full alignment of front and rear sights. Even then sight alignment was reported only 20% of the time. A substantial number of officers, over 10% on average, stated that they couldn't remember whether or not they used their sights.

Add to that, as many as 77% of police shootings are believed to occur under some degree of diminished lighting. So you've got everything moving, probably in low-light conditions, and all the effects of an adrenaline dump are hitting you.

Under those realistic conditions, good shot placement will be as much--or more--about luck as skill.

There's a reason we're taught in defensive shooting to go for COM, Center of Mass. Whatever is the biggest piece of the bad guy you can see, aim in the middle of it. The only one-shot physiological stop is brain stem or top of the spinal cord...and unless everything has pretty much stopped moving and you're at a close distance, that's just not a shot you're going to make under stress in a gunfight.

So I like snatchel's ranking. In a perfect world, perfect shot placement is all you need.

Next up (this assuming a reasonable defensive caliber; no .25 ACP), give me a tool that will allow multiple, rapid, follow-up shots without having to reload. I'd much rather have multiple rounds of 9mm on board than a two-shot .45 ACP derringer.

Last, I'd prefer a large caliber over a smaller one. If I know I'm not going to be able to select highly accurate targets during a gunfight, I want the largest wound channel I can get.

What you choose is all a balancing act. It has to be comfortable enough to carry; you have to be able to present it quickly and effectively; you have to be able to shoot it well and be willing to practice with it; and you have to understand certain basics about what a deadly-force encounter might actually look like.
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#53

Post by txhighlander »

I know quite a few cops that carry a 380. It is a backup but a backup is what you have to use when your primary is out of the picture. One of my best friends son work for one of the county's in Florida, the whole department just went with S&W bodyguards in 380 for backups. They love them from what I hear. I own and shoot very well a Sig 230 sl that I carry. As I have stated before my first instructor, 4 tours as a ranger in Vietnam and now 30 plus years as a cop carries a 380 every day and swears by them. Not only has he been in combat but he has used his weapon in the line of duty. They do work. That's why there are so many choices because we all have different experiences. A 22 has put more people down than probably all pistol calibers combined. This will be one that we will all never agree on yet it will always be close to our hearts . This is a awesome forum that I have already learned lots . I look forward to learning more. Thanks.
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#54

Post by C-dub »

txhighlander wrote:I know quite a few cops that carry a 380. It is a backup but a backup is what you have to use when your primary is out of the picture. One of my best friends son work for one of the county's in Florida, the whole department just went with S&W bodyguards in 380 for backups. They love them from what I hear. I own and shoot very well a Sig 230 sl that I carry. As I have stated before my first instructor, 4 tours as a ranger in Vietnam and now 30 plus years as a cop carries a 380 every day and swears by them. Not only has he been in combat but he has used his weapon in the line of duty. They do work. That's why there are so many choices because we all have different experiences. A 22 has put more people down than probably all pistol calibers combined. This will be one that we will all never agree on yet it will always be close to our hearts . This is a awesome forum that I have already learned lots . I look forward to learning more. Thanks.
I bet if they could figure out how to carry it, they would probably rather have another G21 as their BUG. :lol:
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#55

Post by Dallas »

Great read!!!
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#56

Post by CC Italian »

Last time I saw a group of local constables talking together they were all carrying 1911s. I love 1911s but I thought they would want more rounds. Every city cop in Houston I have seen carries a High Capacity 12+ handgun. Maybe the constables in the suburbs have less restrictions on what they can carry? I don't know but if I was a LEO I would take 12-17 rounds over a single stack 1911.

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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#57

Post by JeepGuy79 »

summertime is crazy hot here. I am toting a sig p238 most days right now. and I feel 100% safe with it. Good training, quality ammo, and good training matter more to me than caliber. The gun is super accurate with low recoil and I have done loads of Mozambique drills with it. I doubt anyone will like getting shot 3 times with it.

That said. I am a .45 guy and I carry a 45 and a bug when weather permits.
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#58

Post by Skiprr »

CC Italian wrote:Last time I saw a group of local constables talking together they were all carrying 1911s. I love 1911s but I thought they would want more rounds. Every city cop in Houston I have seen carries a High Capacity 12+ handgun. Maybe the constables in the suburbs have less restrictions on what they can carry? I don't know but if I was a LEO I would take 12-17 rounds over a single stack 1911.
I don't know, either. I have a couple of high-capacity, double-stack .45s, but I carry a 1911. So I'm guilty.

That's the trade-off I've chosen. A 1911 is nice and flat so I can carry it easily; I'm very familiar and practiced with its use and manual-at-arms; and the 8-round count is something I'm willing to accept in lieu of a smaller caliber. Going back to those SOP-9 statistics, officers fired an average of 5.2 rounds. That tells me I probably don't want a 5-shot revolver as a primary (your mileage may vary); a 6-shot revolver is minimal; 8 rounds is a reasonable place to start. Especially if you practice your reloading skills. And, yeah, I carry two extra mags.
JeepGuy79 wrote:I am toting a sig p238 most days right now. and I feel 100% safe with it. Good training, quality ammo, and good training matter more to me than caliber. The gun is super accurate with low recoil and I have done loads of Mozambique drills with it.
Just a note that you may want to rethink your your concept of "good training."

Mozambique drills are useful...but are seldom practical in real-world applications unless you practice them on moving targets. The problem is that bodies move. The part that moves the least is at the center of gravity: from the navel to the thighs. The parts that move the most are at the extremities, hands and feet, followed by...you guessed it, the head. Just watch some NFL running plays.

Placing an accurate shot at stuff that moves the most--especially in an encounter where everything is likely to be moving--is an unrealistic thing to expect.

A head-shot with a handgun at a moving target is unrealistic.

It's particularly unrealistic in an urban environment where innocents may be within the trajectory of the shot.

I guess my ultimate message is:

Please. Please!

Don't overestimate yourself.
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#59

Post by JeepGuy79 »

I absolutely agree 100% I have had CQB training as well and even surprising/moving targets in a "kill house" are nothing like real life. I have done simunitions with a mp5 and would say having a human firing back at me even with just chalk changed everything. I am no awesome seal team 6 tough guy, and never will be. God willing I never have the need to be.

The only time I have been within feet of an active shooter I was unarmed and he emptied the snub 38 just as fast as I saw the weapon. from the time I saw the gun until it emptied was faster than I can clear my gun from my holster and he hit 5 guys (one twice). Unbelievable fast. I have better SA now I would like to think but I think it is all a toss up. In my limited experience it is unlikely a concealed handgun will save you but at least it gives you more of a chance of survival.

Shooting at paper is not going to save me. I am under no misunderstanding that it will. But it makes the drawing of the gun and firing it more muscle memory. In real life I might pee myself and empty the entire gun until it clicks. Who knows?
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Re: Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

#60

Post by G26ster »

Thank heavens for the last two posts. They certainly bring a dose of "real world" into this thread. Just MHO :tiphat:
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