Safety On or Off?

[Mike from Texas]

All of my carry guns have a round chambered. THe only difference being my 1911s are carried in condition 1. My Glocks, Kel-Tec and Kahr are carried with a round in the chamber but obviously do not have a manual safety.

I have never understood the mentality of not wanting to carry a round in the chamber. That's the last thing you need to be thinking about doing if you are ever in a situation where you need to use it.

I think the mentality is that the don't trust there won't be an accidental discharge of the firearm into the owner while they are carrying it. Muprhy's law has burned many a person into not trusting circumstances and mechanicals.

I would venture to say there are many dead men as a result of not carrying their weapon ready to go when they need it as well.

Agreed. I did not post that to get into an argument on the merits as I am a firm believer in carrying in whatever way works for each individual person, their conditions, and their time of their life. OT but the only thing I am happy about is stopping someone from 1911 carrying CHL cocked with no safety (I talked them into carrying with the safety on).

Having said that:
1. I would also venture there are those who suffer from Glock Leg (learn something every day).
2. You can take this the other way as well. Logically we should all be carrying pistols drawn under a coat, because milliseconds count.

My circumstances and my decisioning are my own and your mileage may vary.

Agreed good Sir.

[stroo]

"Glock triggers can indeed be made as light, but they don't come that way from the factory, nor could they be described as being a glass-rod break - they also have a longer trigger-pull and are quite safe to carry without a thumb-safety being required - or are you saying otherwise? Second question - would you carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked? If not, why?"

From the Glock 26 site:
TRIGGER PULL
2.5 kg / 5.5 lbs.
TRIGGER TRAVEL
12.5 mm / 0.5 in
However measuring my Glock 26, I come up with a little over .3 in travel. As far as I know, it hasn't had a trigger job and It doesn't feel any shorter than any other Glock I have shot.

From the S&W M&P 45 site:
Trigger Pull: 6.5 lbs.
Trigger Travel: Rest to Fire .300 in.
Trigger Reset: Approx. .140 in.

From several sites on 1911:
Standard trigger pull: 3.5-7 lbs, not glass-rod break unless modified.
Measuring my 1911s trigger travel, I got around .1- .2 in. On several sites, posters mention that various makes of 1911, particularly Taurus, have as much as 1/4 inch of slack before the trigger really begins to travel. That would put overall trigger travel in the range of .35-.45.

From several sites on Hipowers:
Trigger pull: 7.5 Lbs
Measured travel on my Hipowers: .25-.6 in

Comparing the guns, the trigger pulls are about the same with some 1911s and Glock at the low end and Hipowers at the high end but in reality, not much difference. While the trigger travel in the 1911 is clearly less than any of the others, the Hipower and M&P are about the same as is my Glock. And even they are only .1-.2 inches longer than my 1911s, really not much for most people. And at least one of my Hipowers had longer trigger travel than any of the others.

In comparison, the Sig 229 has a double action trigger pull of about 10 lbs and my Sig 229 trigger travels at least .6 inches in DA. I haven't measured them but I am sure my Ruger P 95 was in the same range and my KT P11 was even longer. In sum, the Glock and M&P do not have long trigger pulls, not compared to the 1911 or Hipower nor to a true DA the Sig 229.

Would I carry a 1911 or Hipower with the safety off? I don't carry a 1911 but have carried my Hipowers with the safety off. I don't make a practice of it primarily because I like to have a thumb safety. My M&P also has a thumb safety unlike many. Have I carried my Glock even though it doesn't have a trigger safety? Sure but not very often because I don't trust that "long pull". There is a reason that the term "Glock leg" exists. No shading here, just the truth. If you are depending on that "long pull" of a Glock as a safety, you are depending on a thin reed, IMHO.

In the end, the primary safeties are in your and my minds. With any of these guns including the 1911, as long as you keep your finger and anything else off the trigger, the gun won't go off. That is the only reason I feel at all comfortable carrying my Glock. And with Glock, Sig, M&P without safeties and the 1911 and Hipower with the safety off, if you pull the trigger the gun will go off. Keeping your finger off the trigger is the most important safety and it works that same no matter the gun or the condition the gun is in.

If you want safety, carry a 1911 or Hipower or M&P with the thumb safety. If pull and click is more important to you then carry a Glock or other gun without a thumb safety. But don't delude yourself that a Glock is just as safe as a 1911 or Hipower with the thumb safety on. We each have our own decisions to make as to what to carry. Just make sure you make them based on facts and valid reasoning.

[CompVest]

I have carried 1911s coked and locked and M&Ps chambered. I have NOT felt that either was inherently more or less safe to carry than the other. I believe the best way to carry any gun is the way the manufacturer intended. To carry it in any other condition is inviting mishaps.

[stroo]

"So, respectively 5 and 3 times longer trigger-pull than the 1911, then? That's kind of my point as to why I would have no issue carrying them chambered in the absence of a thumb-safety. You, of course, may feel differently but that's fine - doesn't affect me in any way "

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Take the best numbers for your case and ignore the rest. I understand.

I don't like carrying without a thumb-safety period but if I do carry without a thumb safety, I want something that really does have a long hard trigger pull. Glock's and M&Ps just don't have a long, hard trigger pull. You are fooling yourself if you think they do, but as you say, that's fine - doesn't affect me in any way.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating carrying a 1911 or Hipower with the safety off. What I am saying is that there is no significant difference between carrying a Glock/M&P and carrying a 1911 or Hipower with the safety off. If something gets in the trigger of any of these guns, like your finger, the gun is going to go off. However if something gets in the trigger of a 1911 or Hipower with the safety on, the gun isn't going to go off. That's my point as to why I don't like carrying a gun without either a thumb safety or a true long and hard pull like a Sig. But each to his own.

BTW, I also recognize that there are valid reasons having nothing to do with safety for carrying a Glock or M&P. If you are concerned that you may forget to take the safety off and shoot a Glock or M&P better than a Sig, a revolver or other true DA, then you should carry the Glock or M&P. Just understand that you should always use a holster and you need to be more careful when you do holster. I pocket carry my Glock when I do carry it. But I always put the Glock in the pocket holster so that the trigger is covered and then put the gun and holster together into my pocket.


"Sure it is - it just depends who's handling it, and, in fact, I would argue that Glocks are more drop-safe than regular 1911s (I can't believe I'm defending Glocks here, but fair is fair). How are you defining "safe", exactly?"

The inherent safety of the gun, and different guns are more or less inherently safe, does not depend on who's handling. The safety of the person with the gun and those around him or her does depend on who is handling the gun regardless of the gun.

BTW, agree completely with you on keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction. While I said the most important safety is keeping your finger off the trigger, in fact all of the four laws are as important. If you keep all four of them all the time, you and those around you should be safe. Again the primary safeties are in our minds.

Although most 1911s and Hipowers now made have effective drop-safeties, I would agree that a Glock is certainly more drop safe than an older 1911 or Hipower without the thumb safety on. A Glock is not anymore drop safe though than a 1911 or Hipower of any age with the thumb safety on.

[stroo]

by AndyC » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:14 pm

stroo wrote:
The inherent safety of the gun, and different guns are more or less inherently safe, does not depend on who's handling. The safety of the person with the gun and those around him or her does depend on who is handling the gun regardless of the gun.

"So some guns just go off by themselves but not others? Is it just me or do those two sentences contradict one another? I'm not sure what your point is, so please clarify."

While we agree on many things, the heart of our disagreement seems to be whether some guns are inherently less safe than others.

While guns do not go off by themselves, some guns are more susceptible to handling errors than others and therefore are less safe.
For example a single action revolver needs to be carried without a round in the chamber but a double action revolver can be carried with a round in the chamber. Why? Because a SA revolver if dropped with a round in the chamber may very well go off. It is less safe.
A 1911 with a 2 lb trigger is great for competition, but most people would not consider it as "safe" for carry as a 1911 with a 5 lb trigger.
Indeed you claim that Glock's are more drop safe than 1911s.
And in the end you appear to agree with me that Glock's are more susceptible to having things get caught in a trigger and going off than 1911s are.

Can you carry any gun safely? Probably. But some take a more training and care in handling than others do to carry safely. Those that require more training and care in handling are inherently less safe.

[LarryH]

For example a single action revolver needs to be carried without a round in the chamber but a double action revolver can be carried with a round in the chamber. Why? Because a SA revolver if dropped with a round in the chamber may very well go off. It is less safe.

Certain models of single action revolvers, yes, but not all. For Ruger Single-Six and Blackhawk models, for example, depends on the age. And even then, Ruger will "upgrade" the older models (prior to about 1973, I believe) to "New Model" configuration. (I have chosen to leave mine in the original configuration, FWIW).

[Fangs]

My S&W 642 doesn't have a safety. It's DAO, and I've never worried about my ability to safely pocket carry it with all 5 rounds in the cylinder.

I've always carried my Beretta PX4 with safety on and a round in the chamber. It just seemed natural to have the safety on and I'm proficient at clicking it off at the same time I draw the weapon. The thought of carrying without the safety just never crossed my mind. Now that I think about it, the first trigger pull being a decently heavy DA, I'm not really any more opposed to carrying with no safety than I'm opposed to carrying my DAO revolver.

I knew I liked you people for a reason.

[paadams]

I carry a Glock with one in the pipe.

[Dragonfighter]

The 1911 I carried in the army was cocked and locked in a flap holster, sometimes I drew the rifle from the armory...sometimes both. The 1911 I have now was my uncle's competition weapon and is modified to the point where carry is impractical.

I never thought, when I first went CHL that a Glock would be what I carry but when I had to qualify with one (borrowed) because I'd left the ammo for my weapon at the house I fell in love with it, floating barrel and all. I researched them and decided it was the carry weapon for me. Reliable, tough and not so expensive I'd be afraid to take it out of the house. The torture tests were something to read about.

Now here's the deal. I hear a lot of "but it doesn't have a safety" type of sentiment. It actually has two. The first most obvious is the trigger safety, a finger must be accross the trigger for it to travel. IOW a side load will not depress the trigger. The second is when the gun is in battery it always is at a half cock. This has two facets. The trigger pull completes the cocking and releases the striker all in one motion. It is neither SA or DA but the same pull first shot as all subsequent shots. With it always in half cock it will not discharge from a drop, barring some internal malfunction.

It is no different in concept then carrying a DA revolver but they are much more rugged than anything else I looked at. As to the "Glock Leg"/Plaxico syndrome, when ever I pick it up or draw the weapon my trigger finger always comes to rest along the rail. It takes a micro-second to drop inside the guard and pull the trigger if needed. That has the added aspect of making sure I have a positive target ID before a possible discharge, like if I am investigating a noise in the house.

so I primarily carry a Glock and the safety is on.