Gonna use a small gun as my main carry.

[chamuiel]

I have a.380, but it will be my B.U.G. My carry is a Ruger SR40C in .40 S&W caliber. I am an old man, and I want something that will put someone down if the need ever arises. If The .40 don't work, I may consider carrying a .45. No .380m as a EDC for me.

[chamuiel]

A friend’s wife asked why does he need to carry a gun all the time and he said to protect himself; and his wife says "all the time"?

So he gets out a piece of paper and asks her to write down all the places he will be in trouble and need his gun!

She never said anything about it again... so I offer the same piece of paper for you to write down all the places you are going to need a bigger gun

Yes, but the same thing could be said to you. Here is a piece of paper. Please sit down and write up all the situations in which you might find your self where a .380 will be adequate. I bet every situation you come up with, my .40 would also be adequate.

Still a .380 is better than nothing. But so is a .25, a .22 or a knife.

[chamuiel]

I was talking to my daughter about this just the other day. I asked her if she would be interested in a .380 as a carry weapon. She said, nope she wanted a nine. Yes, she has shot a .22, .25. 32. .380. 9mm and a .40 and a .357 mag. She wants a nine, no .380 for her and she also mentioned the more bullets the magazine held, the better she would like it. I asked her to explain. She said she did not want a baby nine with a six round magazine. She wanted something that would hold 16 rounds.

[chamuiel]

So hear me out. I have gone through 53 years of life without a threat. Gonna carry the .380 everyday and when I am in threat situations gonna also carry my Sig .40.
D

When you wake up in the morning, how do you know if you will be in a threatening situation that day?

Exactly.

If someone ever gets that technique worked out, there are lots of folks who would pay money to learn it - myself included.

Those of us who haven't mastered that method favor making our carry choices with the recognition that a really nasty unanticipated threat can arise at any time.

If they can ever figure that out, I might start carrying a .22 derringer most days. For the days I am not expecting trouble.

[Excaliber]

A 380 in the heart will kill faster than a 45 in the behonkus.

That's why those who have thought this through don't aim for the "behonkus" with the .45 or any other caliber.

So, you too agree that shot placement is #1; my point exactly.

I do not agree that placement is the only variable that makes a difference in a gunfight.

Placement is important, but what you place there is important as well.

If the light, low powered round you use fails to penetrate to reach vital organs, or ricochets off a rib or skull, etc. all those theories of ballistic adequacy won't save you from what your adversary, who will not be amused, will do next.

Your adversary may indeed die later from his wounds. You too will die of yours.

That's not my idea of a successful defensive encounter.

YMMV

That's why Bill Jordan pointed out that in gunfights there are no second place winners.

[carlson1]

I find this article interesting concerning small calibers.

http://www.usconcealedcarry.net/2012/07 ... led-carry/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AEA]

Yep, the .357 Mag was the only one that had a single digit percentage of those it did not stop.

Makes my SP101 (for quick short trips to the Country Store) feel even more warm and fuzzy!

[03Lightningrocks]

Yep, the .357 Mag was the only one that had a single digit percentage of those it did not stop.

Makes my SP101 (for quick short trips to the Country Store) feel even more warm and fuzzy!

I held a Smith and Wesson M&P 340 the other day. I want one so bad I am thinking of selling a couple of my other guns to get it. The .357 is hard to argue against IMHO. It was only five rounds but I figured I could carry a speed loader or two for "just in case". I have yet to fire one but it was light as a feather and would drop into my pocket.

[Wienerdogtroy]

A 380 in the heart will kill faster than a 45 in the behonkus.

.380 corbons can produce a world of hurt.

Again go with what you are comfortable with.

Also may I suggest... there are a variety of small single column 9mms that may also foot the bill. Kahr, Keltec, Ruger LC9, Si 938
the near perfect Walther PPS, Beretta Nano, and new S&W Shield may just be the ticket.

[apostate]

So, you too agree that shot placement is #1; my point exactly.

If you have arthritis or other physical issues and .380ACP is the most you can handle, it's better than nothing. However, I advise against fooling yourself into thinking a round with 200 ft lbs of energy is "just as good" as those with 400 to 500 ft lbs of energy.

[Jim Beaux]

A 380 in the heart will kill faster than a 45 in the behonkus.

That's why those who have thought this through don't aim for the "behonkus" with the .45 or any other caliber.

So, you too agree that shot placement is #1; my point exactly.

I do not agree that placement is the only variable that makes a difference in a gunfight.

Placement is important, but what you place there is important as well.

If the light, low powered round you use fails to penetrate to reach vital organs, or ricochets off a rib or skull, etc. all those theories of ballistic adequacy won't save you from what your adversary, who will not be amused, will do next.

Your adversary may indeed die later from his wounds. You too will die of yours.

That's not my idea of a successful defensive encounter.

YMMV

That's why Bill Jordan pointed out that in gunfights there are no second place winners.

The FBI concluded that, "Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively"

The below will link to the FBI's analysis of a shoot out in which the BG suffered multiple wounds that afterwards caused the LEO's to believe that the .40 cal was inadequate. As a result, this analysis was then ordered by the FBI.

Defensive Systems Unit Ballistic Research Facility FBI Academy

Resulted in a belief by Police officials that.40 S&W ammunition failed and .223 ammunition“saved the day”.

The last line on the last page of this report, under "Lessons Learned"

Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively.

WARNING: THIS LINKS TO A POWER POINT TYPE PRESENTATION THAT INCLUDES PHOTOS OF THE AUTOPSY PHOTOS, HIGHLIGHTING THE BG'S WOUNDS. YOU CAN SCROLL THROUGH THE PHOTOS QUICKLY TO REACH "The Lessons Learned" section.


http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-co ... ootout.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Below is a link to my favorite source. Im sure it will start some debate:

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power- The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

-http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

[03Lightningrocks]

Well gosh then. I suppose a pellet gun is good enough. I just need to place my shot properly. While in a firefight that I have had no formal training to be in.

The problem with this theory of shot placement is that a shoot out is nothing like a video game. First... Shooting at a human being is something that is far easier to talk about than actually do. Those paper targets we shoot at are not moving side to side or ducking for cover. My shot placement could easily be off a bit and if it is, I know for a fact, my .40 is going to hit that shoulder a whole lot harder than a .380.

Another issue that is not being discussed enough is penetration. My .40 is less likely to be slowed down or stopped by heavy clothing or even a muscular chest than a .380.

If you feel comfortable with the .380, by all means, carry one. But the comparison should not be shooting a person in the chest with a .380 vs shooting them in the fanny with a .45... LOL. Although a shot in the fanny with a .45 is very likely to take most of your butt cheek off and put you on the ground immediately. While a shot in the chest with a .380 is likely to leave a guy coming at you long enough to stick that knife into your belly.

[Mike1951]

With no explanation given why the .40 S&W rounds only penetrated 1", they determined the rounds met FBI performance standards???

Please tell me I misread that.

[snatchel]

Here is my ranking structure:

1. Shot Placement
2. Amount of rounds put into subject
3. Caliber of rounds put into subject

Mike--Further down they stated that the 40 S&W rounds went further than 1' and expanded. I believe they were implying that the original coroner report stating that penetration was less than 1' was flawed.

I could be wrong.

[Excaliber]

A 380 in the heart will kill faster than a 45 in the behonkus.

That's why those who have thought this through don't aim for the "behonkus" with the .45 or any other caliber.

So, you too agree that shot placement is #1; my point exactly.

I do not agree that placement is the only variable that makes a difference in a gunfight.

Placement is important, but what you place there is important as well.

If the light, low powered round you use fails to penetrate to reach vital organs, or ricochets off a rib or skull, etc. all those theories of ballistic adequacy won't save you from what your adversary, who will not be amused, will do next.

Your adversary may indeed die later from his wounds. You too will die of yours.

That's not my idea of a successful defensive encounter.

YMMV

That's why Bill Jordan pointed out that in gunfights there are no second place winners.

The FBI concluded that, "Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively"

The below will link to the FBI's analysis of a shoot out in which the BG suffered multiple wounds that afterwards caused the LEO's to believe that the .40 cal was inadequate. As a result, this analysis was then ordered by the FBI.

Defensive Systems Unit Ballistic Research Facility FBI Academy

Resulted in a belief by Police officials that.40 S&W ammunition failed and .223 ammunition“saved the day”.

The last line on the last page of this report, under "Lessons Learned"

Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively.

WARNING: THIS LINKS TO A POWER POINT TYPE PRESENTATION THAT INCLUDES PHOTOS OF THE AUTOPSY PHOTOS, HIGHLIGHTING THE BG'S WOUNDS. YOU CAN SCROLL THROUGH THE PHOTOS QUICKLY TO REACH "The Lessons Learned" section.


http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-co ... ootout.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Below is a link to my favorite source. Im sure it will start some debate:

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power- The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

-http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Experience with investigating real life shootings and participating in the research that goes into choosing an agency's handgun and ammunition makes a world of difference in how the sources quoted above are understood.

This is what I get from the information presented:

1. Shot placement is key. Unless a shot is placed into an area that disrupts the central nervous system, causes massive bleeding, or collapses the skeletal support structure, no handgun round will disable a determined adversary because while the critical body systems are functioning enough to support intentional movement, a person can fight through impairment of those systems if he really wants to.

2. Although the language quoted says shot placement is "everything", that's meant for an audience that understands that it is the most important, but not only, relevant factor. If the statement is taken literally and in isolation, a hit with a BB would achieve the same result as a hit with a .40 S&W. I think most would agree that's clearly not the case.

3. There is no super handgun bullet. No handgun round configured for a gun that can be routinely carried in public can be counted on to disable an adversary with one shot. Most shotgun and rifle rounds, while substantially more damaging, are not 100% either.

4. A knowledgeable defensive tactician should expect his initial shots to fail to stop an attacker, and should continue his active defense until the threat is no longer a threat.

5. With modern expanding ammunition, there is not a great deal of difference in the effectiveness of 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP rounds given identical shot placement. One would not be underarmed with any of them or with any of the similar and in between rounds - .38/.357, .357 Sig, .45 GAP, .44 Special, etc.

6. The article appears to be discussing the effectiveness of rounds for police service, so there's no need to discuss small or low powered rounds that no agency issues for general duty use. The lessons learned shouldn't be extrapolated to apply to those rounds because not all will be valid. Shot placement will still be key, but a .380 will not produce the same results as one of the cartridges listed above when viewed across multiple incidents. If it did, LEO's would carry .380's.