Here's a sad story. Is there a lesson?

[Venus Pax]

If you find an armed individual in your house, why would you want to risk handcuffing it? Just shoot. That person isn't there to get a ride to the gun range.
(See signature line.)

[Scott Murray]

An armed burglar will likely have his piece concealed. After all, he didn't want to be seen with it before he entered my house. Once he's searching for stuff to take, he'll want to have his hands free. So his pistol will probably be in a holster or pocket. If he's got it out, it means he's alerted to my presence, and is willing to use his weapon, which is all the more reason for me to shoot immediately.

So I'm thinking about the case where I don't see a gun, but he may well have one. I don't think I'm ready to shoot immediately in that case, as long as he doesn't make any threatening moves, and complies with my commands.

Every instinct I have is going to be to focus on him, watching intently for any sign of a threat. But this is going to make me vulnerable to his accomplice(s). I'm appreciating the importance of quickly moving to the position that offers the best possible cover, and allows me to face any doors. And then I'll need maintain a fast scan, watching both his hands and any directions from which another threat could come. Then while maintaining this condition, I'll have to call for help, and instruct family members. It won't be easy.

Speaking of family members, what should they plan to do? My adult daughters have a 38 and know how to use it. Should I tell them to retreat to a safe room, arm themselves, and call for help? Or should they come try to help me? What about the wife and other daughters?
Scott

[HOSSISFREE]

He reached for a weapon officer. Scared me to death. Who's to say different. The dead BG?

[flintknapper]

Lets change "the sad story" just a little.

Suppose you come home from work to find an intruder in the living room of your home (downstairs). You see that the person is armed, but you surprise the BG and they drop their weapon on the floor in what appears to be a surrender.

A few seconds later you hear your teenage daughter calling for help from an upstairs bedroom. You can tell by the sounds there is a struggle going on. You call out your daughters name, and when she hears your voice...her pleas become all the more urgent.

So folks, how many of you are going to wait on the police to arrive (assuming you had time to call). Who is going to shoot the now unarmed (we think) Bad Guy?

If you decide to go to your daughters aid, how will you keep track of the BG you just left downstairs (assuming you didn't shoot him)?

Before you answer with: Take up a position of cover, call police and wait, then I must ask you to consider the "time factor". As already demonstrated in the "real" story, it doesn't take long for someone to kill an entire family.

In the imaginary scenario, I'm going to toss a pair of cuffs close to the BG, order him to put them on, if he doesn't, he gets shot and I'll cuff whats left of him. Soon after that (where family is involved), I'm going to become one house clearing "Son of a Gun". And yes, I know the dangers involved.

Just my .02

[TxFire]

Well in that scenario I will likely tell him to ly down on his belly and stay put (I don't keep cuffs on me) and unless he appears to be treatening I will leave him and go to the aid of the daugter/son/wife. If he runs so be it, if he become a threat he will be dispatched ASAP. The safety of the others is more important than the capture of the one burglar/assailant at that time.

[HOSSISFREE]

If there is one thing I learned during my short time with a particular law enforcement agency - How it's written on paper is how it occured. I'll leave the lesson at that.

With my family involved, and in the changed scenario, my daughter is screaming for help...well, I may need to leave the rest of that alone...

Hoss

p.s. This is all hypothetical after all.

[flintknapper]

Well in that scenario I will likely tell him to ly down on his belly and stay put (I don't keep cuffs on me) and unless he appears to be treatening I will leave him and go to the aid of the daugter/son/wife. If he runs so be it, if he become a threat he will be dispatched ASAP. The safety of the others is more important than the capture of the one burglar/assailant at that time.

Do you see him being unrestrained, near his weapon, possibly in possession of other weapons, and completely free to do his bidding as a potential problem? I don't mean that disrespectfully, its just that many situations would not allow for the convenience of calling the police, or having the BG dutifully comply with our commands.

I know the scenario is a tough one, and I'm not advocating the routine carry or use of cuffs. We teach "police tactics" (to LEO only) at the dojo, and frankly.. most of the guys that come in.. knew they needed some additional training. If officers have problems, then the "average Joe" is sure to struggle with it.

I can see cuffs being useful under certain conditions, but would never suggest anyone carry them around with the idea that they're going to "arrest" anyone.

I think Mrs. Flintknapper has it correct when she accuses me of being "over-prepared". But hey, I don't have an AR-15 in the trunk of my car, and no one gets any flak over that.

I would kinda like an AR though.........

[longtooth]

Flint, big as you are get a real gun. Get a M1A.

[Boma]

We're in Texas, if they're in your house and you hear a struggle upstairs, shoot them and go upstairs. They broke into your house they asked for death.


We're debating on how to be fair to the bad guy by throwing handcuffs at them and stuff. They won't throw handcuffs at us so they can rob our house; they'll just blow our heads off first.

[flintknapper]

We're in Texas, if they're in your house and you hear a struggle upstairs, shoot them and go upstairs. They broke into your house they asked for death.


We're debating on how to be fair to the bad guy by throwing handcuffs at them and stuff. They won't throw handcuffs at us so they can rob our house; they'll just blow our heads off first.

Perhaps my purpose for "cuffing" was unclear, (my writing skills leave something to be desired). If I in any way.. led you to believe that I am interested in being "fair" to the BG, then my apologies.

My concern in this scenario is one of "control". Ideally, I wouldn't want the "variable" of having a threat both downstairs and upstairs. When faced with multiple threats you start out with a disadvantage.

Personally, I'm going to get upstairs to my daughter as fast as is humanly possible, but leaving a potentially deadly threat (un-neutralized) and behind me, seems like a patently bad idea.

[revjen45]

I would not try to capture a BG. The police are leery of attempting that without backup. Possible scenarios:
1) Show him the muzzle and snarl "If you want to live you better run." If he refuses your advice open fire. Keep shooting until he falls down.
2) If he is armed don't bother with telling him to hit the road. If you have the element of surprise, maybe you have time to aim well enough for a head shot. If not aim for COM and keep shooting until he falls down.
3) In the gun-at-his feet and your daughter screaming scenario shoot him until he falls down, kick the gun away from him and go to her aid while you reload.
While the only justifiable reason for use of deadly force is to prevent the predator from harming you, it is much better for you if they succumb to their injuries. That way there is only one story- yours. It's your word against that of a corpse with a long rap sheet. ("I just knocked on the door and the SOB shot me when I asked for directions")
Most criminals would rather escape than fight it out with an armed and competent intended victim. Capturing him is for the police. If he disappears in a cloud of heel dust that's a preferable outcome to shooting him. Every predator avoids prey that is likely to injure it. The idea is get what they want and leave unscathed. When the intended prey puts them at risk the cost-benefit equation suddenly shifts.

[TxFire]

Flint,
This is indeed a tricky one. I would certainly NOT leave him with the weapon I observed. Past that I'm not real sure what to do at. Though I could certainly justify to myself shooting an armed intruder and then going to aid the others, that is not really the option I want to take just yet. I'm interested in others thought past the shoot and go on to others option.

[flintknapper]

Flint,
This is indeed a tricky one. I would certainly NOT leave him with the weapon I observed. Past that I'm not real sure what to do at. Though I could certainly justify to myself shooting an armed intruder and then going to aid the others, that is not really the option I want to take just yet. I'm interested in others thought past the shoot and go on to others option.

Yeah,

Its basically a no win situation. You either have to secure BG #1's weapon or render him incapable of using it. Even if you manage that, you still have stairs to climb (a highly defensible position for BG #2) and then engage him without harming your child.

I can't say for sure how it would turn out, but one thing my daughter knows she can count on is: Dad WILL be coming, and he ain't gonna be happy!

[64zebra]

my reply to the first scenario assumed the bg didn't have a weapon visible nor was making threatening advancemnt;
in this second one there is a weapon in sight and within reach....I say he gets shot, he has committed a felony by breaking into my house and I know he was carrying a weapon and its still within reach, I'm not taking chances with that

[one eyed fatman]

my reply to the first scenario assumed the bg didn't have a weapon visible nor was making threatening advancemnt

Never ever assume anything when danger is near.

Handcuffing is a police action not ours. That's why we carry guns not cuffs. If you willing to give the BG the benefit of the doubt your willing to die.