Killeen: dog shooter charged

[Morgan]

I'm curious why you'd fire a warning shot AT ALL for a dog. The dog doesn't know what a gun shot it. You'd be more likely to call off a dog by command-voice than a sharp noise, I'd think.

[seamusTX]

2. why would any person in their right mind charge at an armed man yelling threats, especially if that armed man had just fired a "warning shot"?

The man who attacked Mr. Fish, Grant Kuenzli, was arguably not in his right mind and hadn't been for decades.

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are many hypotheticals in that case. What if Mr. Fish had been carrying pepper spray or some other non-lethal defense against dogs? I don't think Kuenzli's reactions would be predictable, regardless of what happened.

I'm curious why you'd fire a warning shot AT ALL for a dog. The dog doesn't know what a gun shot [is].

Some animals are frightened by gunshots. However, my experience is that most are not. I would think a fighting dog in attack mode would not be frightened. It seems this one wasn't.

- Jim

[DoubleJ]

weren't we JUST talking about this case, the other day???
anyway, the thing that is most certain in ol' Mr Fish's case, is that his lawyer was as effective as a brick.
cause, you know, 10mm is a "man-killer"
anyway, like Jim said, carry OC for the dogs, and it's good on people, too!

another case of if the only tool you have is a hammer...

[TexasRedRock]

The Authorities up here should do a good job on the investigation. However, when the young man talked too much, the evidence was let known to the KPD public relations lady, Carrol Smith. She passed the info about the warning shot onto the media and here it is broadcast out to the Public. Hope this doesnt happen in my area, I am not but 5 or 6 blocks from where it happened.

[KRM45]

I'm curious why you'd fire a warning shot AT ALL for a dog. The dog doesn't know what a gun shot it. You'd be more likely to call off a dog by command-voice than a sharp noise, I'd think.

Funny, I was thinking the opposite. A dog (or any animal) doesn't understand that the object you have in your hand is a gun, or that by using it their life could cease. A person on the otherhand should have this understanding. If I point a gun at you and say "stop or I'll shoot" no further warning should be necesarry. My next step is to shoot COM. If an animal is threatening me I think the loud report and a richochet at it's feet is more likely to scare it off than the words.

I saw this on a hunting show one time where a bear was charging sow the guide shot one round at it's feet, and it ran the other way.

I'm not advocating warning shots under any circumstances,l I'm just speculating that they might be more effective for use against animals than people.

[fredtubbs]

Several years ago, before I got my CHL I was nearly attacked by dog in a situation that could have gone sideways multiple times. I was in a small public park with my 2 year old child and our little 10 pound dog. A man with a German Shepherd was at the other side of the field with his dog off leash (despite the signs). The dog saw us from about 100 yards and came barreling toward us. I saw the threat coming and picked up my daughter. As I moved to pick up our little dog, the other dog approached. I yelled like a drill sargent 'stop', which slowed the dog, but he continued to advance. The dog went right for my dog, who was in my arms at this time. He was aggressive, jumping toward me and making a growling noise. He wasn't out of control, but too aggressive. His idiot owner made no effort to stop the dog, and walked over in his flip flops like he didn't have a care in the world. Meanwhile, I've been assessing how I'm going to wrestle this beast and save the kid (and our dog) while ordering the dog to stop. When the idiot finally made it over, he said NOTHING. Not a word to me or the dog. He just grabbed the dog by the collar. Amazed a this, I finally said 'you need to control your animal', to which he said 'he didn't hurt you.' About 75 swear words started to come out of my mouth, but I realized getting my little girl calm was more important that telling this jackass off, so I calmly said 'it's good for you he didn't hurt anyone.' Then, unbelievably, he stopped, turned to me and screamed 'don't ever talk to me or my dog like that again.' WHOA! It was time to exit, so we did immediately. He stood there and challenged me until I got I to my car. This guy was a jerk for sure.

I don't know how I would have reacted if I was carrying. I told my wife immediately after it happened that I felt like I would have drawn on the dog. I'm a little older and more educated now about the law. I think the threat was real, so I probably would have. But, I can also see the owner going totally nuts on me, which would have led to bad things. I also know I would not have offered a warning shot. There is no such thing.

[Liberty]

Is it just me or doesn't this arrest sound fishy? Assuming the man fired the warning shot into the ground. It is also reasonable to believe that he or his dog would have been attempted to be eaten by the meaner dog. While the warning shot sounds like it was a bad idea, it sounds like it was harmless. It really sounds to me like the Killeen police officers want their subjects running around unarmed and not protecting themselves when threatened to be eaten. I wonder if the dog's owner was cited? The owner that let the dog run loose is the real criminal ans is the one that should have been arrested.

[DoubleJ]

please save your 75 curse words for other forums, Fred.

[seamusTX]

Is it just me or doesn't this arrest sound fishy?

Not to me.

Assuming that the story is correct, the guy was committing the offense of UCW and admitted to doing it regularly. That will get someone arrested pretty much everywhere in Texas.

Also, as I wrote earlier, we don't know how the guy was behaving. Maybe the police thought he needed to cool down.

The police don't have a lot of options. All they can do it talk to you, arrest you, or let you go.

Assuming the man fired the warning shot into the ground.

We don't know where he fired the shot.

It likely did not cause damage, or he would have been charged with disorderly or deadly conduct.

I wonder if the dog's owner was cited? The owner that let the dog run loose is the real criminal ans is the one that should have been arrested.

The dog broke through a fence. If the dog did not have a history of that kind of attack, I don't see how it's the owner's fault.

- Jim

[Captain Matt]

He was aggressive, jumping toward me and making a growling noise. He wasn't out of control, but too aggressive. His idiot owner made no effort to stop the dog, and walked over in his flip flops like he didn't have a care in the world. Meanwhile, I've been assessing how I'm going to wrestle this beast and save the kid (and our dog) while ordering the dog to stop.

You should carry this stuff. http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 23&t=21648" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[blackdog8200]

Discharge of the weapon is "Use of deadly force" so a warning shot is still deadly force. Later you might claim it as a "miss" but talk to your lawyer.

The Four Rules
All guns are always loaded.
Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Again: Never talk to the police (when you may or may not have done something wrong)! Respectfully request to remain silent until you have council.

The guy may have been fully in the right to protect himself, but he "talked" afterwards and said something wrong or was unclear in his speech etc. and is now in a load of trouble. Ignorance of the law is no excuse and he admitted "facts" that will be used against him or perhaps increase the charges.....

When you present your weapon, you are in fear for your life and are "using the threat of deadly force". When you decide to use "Deadly force" your finger moves to the trigger only when your sights are on the cause of the fear. You use "deadly force" when you pull the trigger to "Stop, Control, or neutralize" the threat. Once the threat has been stopped, controlled or neutralized, get to safety, call 911, ask for police and ambulance (in the event of a human threat) and the location info only, hang up, and call your lawyer. If not already done, secure your weapon and do not alter the scene in any way!...then, remain silent, just like the cops do! Same thing goes for the people with you, there is plenty of time to recall the event when everyone is calm and collected. (And represented!)

[bridge]

Several years ago, before I got my CHL I was nearly attacked by dog in a situation that could have gone sideways multiple times. I was in a small public park with my 2 year old child and our little 10 pound dog. A man with a German Shepherd was at the other side of the field with his dog off leash (despite the signs). The dog saw us from about 100 yards and came barreling toward us. I saw the threat coming and picked up my daughter. As I moved to pick up our little dog, the other dog approached. I yelled like a drill sargent 'stop', which slowed the dog, but he continued to advance. The dog went right for my dog, who was in my arms at this time. He was aggressive, jumping toward me and making a growling noise. He wasn't out of control, but too aggressive. His idiot owner made no effort to stop the dog, and walked over in his flip flops like he didn't have a care in the world. Meanwhile, I've been assessing how I'm going to wrestle this beast and save the kid (and our dog) while ordering the dog to stop. When the idiot finally made it over, he said NOTHING. Not a word to me or the dog. He just grabbed the dog by the collar. Amazed a this, I finally said 'you need to control your animal', to which he said 'he didn't hurt you.' About 75 swear words started to come out of my mouth, but I realized getting my little girl calm was more important that telling this jackass off, so I calmly said 'it's good for you he didn't hurt anyone.' Then, unbelievably, he stopped, turned to me and screamed 'don't ever talk to me or my dog like that again.' WHOA! It was time to exit, so we did immediately. He stood there and challenged me until I got I to my car. This guy was a jerk for sure.

I don't know how I would have reacted if I was carrying. I told my wife immediately after it happened that I felt like I would have drawn on the dog. I'm a little older and more educated now about the law. I think the threat was real, so I probably would have. But, I can also see the owner going totally nuts on me, which would have led to bad things. I also know I would not have offered a warning shot. There is no such thing.

I've seen first hand and heard this same scenario probably a dozen times. The owners are usually clueless to the abilities of their animal and most definitely don't have children of their own. Therefore, they lack the ability to perceive the threat others feel toward their animals. They are always jerks. I've seen lives ruined mortally, cosmetically and psychologically by dog owners that don't/can't control their animals.

I'm a dog lover, I've got two retriever's. They are TERRIFIED of loud noises as is the case for many large breeds so a warning shot would definitely work against them if they had a mind to rush someone (if they did it would be out of joyful slobber distribution and not for anything harmful).

But, I've also got kids and if a German Shepard is rushing towards one of them it's going to die, regardless of what the owner says. I don't know their dog and for the safety of my kid I'm not going to wait and see. If the owner has a problem and rushes us he'll join his furry friend.

[dukalmighty]

The guy is apparently as flawed in his thinking that if he fires a warning shot it shows he really didn't want to shoot the intended victim,as he was in thinking he could carry a concealed weapon without a permit.Isn't maryland like an anti handgun state so if you come from a place with strict gun laws I would think you would find out about any laws you moved too

[Fangs]

He was probably so surprised to find that we don't all ride horses down here, that he didn't have time to think that maybe everyone isn't packing heat either.

[The Annoyed Man]

He's also charged with carrying a handgun without a license. It's sad how many people assume what the laws of "gun-friendly" Texas are without having any factual basis.

For anyone who grew up in California, like I did, Texas is "gun-friendly." But you're right that it's not perfect. Things are relative. For all I know, Maryland's laws may be more restrictive than ours - in which case Texas would seem "gun-friendly" to the man in question.

I agree that firing a warning shot makes him a goober. I think that the firing of warning shots is idiotic.