Gun Retention

[flintknapper]

I would be glad to show or describe this counter to you--it is simple and effective.

I think I saw Massad Ayoob show how to do this on Personal Defense TV (Action Plan is my favorite part of the show). I took a one day Krav Maga women's self defense class a few months back and asked the instructor about it. He was going to show me at the end of the class (I was the only one with a CHL) but I was so tired I forgot by the end of the day. If you have direction and maybe a diagram that would be great.

I think it very smart of you to seek out this type of training on a individual level and I hope you will follow through.

Some thoughts about doing it otherwise:

The problem with trying to teach gun retention techniques at the CHL level are many.

The CHL instructor would have to be well trained (and physically fit) in order to learn and teach the myriad of techniques.

The instructor would need to devote hours to each student in order to teach even remedial techniques.

Techniques vary widely based upon whether you are protecting from a "drawn" position or from your holster.

There are techniques that address a person "stalling" your draw (hand on your hand/other). Techniques that address a snatching (where the persons hand is on your weapon), and everything in between.

Most techniques are borrowed from the law enforcement community, meaning that they are geared toward a OWB strong side rig. You'll be hard pressed to find someone teaching techniques for shoulder carry, appendix carry, etc....so the instructor better be pretty good.

Then we have to consider if the student is even "physically" capable of performing the technique.

To make this a "requirement" rather than leaving the additional training up to the CHL holder would be a mistake IMO. Trying to apply a requirement such as this across the demographic make up of CHL applicants just isn't practical.

We have folks ranging in age from 21 all the way into their 80's. We have extreme spreads in terms of physical limitations among any age group. Handgun retention and take away techniques "can" work well when applied to groups such as "Military", "LEO" and the like. As a prerequisite to their training...they must meet certain physical fitness requirements ( a select group, if you will).

Now, I hope no one will think I am trying to discourage anyone from seeking out additional training. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just think it should be sought out by the individual...and then taught to them with their particular abilities/disabilities in mind.

[aardwolf]

Seamus, you cannot be serious. Criminals practice these gun grabbing skills everyday in prision. If you do not think someone can take your gun away from you and use it on you you are dead wrong. People seem to think that because they carry concealed, I do not have to worry about that, you are missing the whole point if you think that way. My whole point in talking about advanced training was the attitude presented here--it could never happen to me. WRONG.

Please point me to documented cases where criminals grabbed a concealed handgun from a CHL's holster. If it's so common, it should be easy to find 10-15 in the past year in Texas alone.

[seamusTX]

The Pin & Spin. If you are intersted Seamus, I would be glad to show or describe this counter to you--it is simple and effective.

Yes, I would be interested, as I have not heard of it.

- Jim

[flintknapper]

Seamus

I in no way am trying to give ammo to the anti-RKBA, my point however, and I am sure any cops in here will back me up--if you carry a gun, you need to know how to handle an attempted gun grab--it is part of being armed. Concealed or not. Granted--I do carry a gun for a living, but I am also a CHL holder, and I drill on a very simple counter to a gun grab I am sure the LEO in this forum are familiar with: The Pin & Spin. If you are intersted Seamus, I would be glad to show or describe this counter to you--it is simple and effective.
Stay Safe.

It's great to have some skills (any skills) above and beyond what a person currently knows.

I would like to point however, that the "pin and spin" was developed to address "one" certain type of gun snatching and is a very old (and good) Lindell technique. It also assumes the snatch attempt is coming from behind or just off the side, but can be used in other situations as well. You "hope" to pin the offending hand before the person can withdraw your weapon from the holster, but this doesn't always work unless you have totally committed the "pin" to muscle memory.

If all goes well.. you end up with the snatcher in a bent wrist lock IF he grabbed at your weapon with the same strong side hand. Otherwise you end up (maybe) with an outside wrist lock that is easily countered by stepping back 45 deg. and straightening the arm. So, lets hope he doesn't grab it with his weak side hand. You will have no way of knowing this (if he is behind you) until you pin his hand.

Attacks and disarms come in so many forms that teaching just a "few" techniques will not prove very useful. Then consider...that many of us "carry" in positions other than strong side....and well......

That is why I recommend each person seek out instruction geared to their method of carry and their ability to perform the technique. There is no "one size fits all" training IMO.

[shootthesheet]

I say no. All the training a CHL holder needs is awareness of their own actions and those of others. Set next to walls. Keep the weapon concealed. Wear the weapon so the grip does not show when bending or find another way to bend and so on. If we want to discuss retention during a fight then that is one thing. But to suggest training for the retention a concealed weapon is beyond anything I will consider. I personally think awareness is enough if it is concealed properly. It is not easy to get a gun out of even a OWB when it is covered and we practice. After a while we learn the hand positions to uncover and pull. I just don’t think most criminals could do it unless the gun was uncovered. My opinion anyway.

[Ranger+P+]

Flintknapper

Let me be clear. I want advanced training (including retention training) to be available in a progressive plan, after a CHL has been issued. I am not trying to make it harder for people to get a CHL--I am advocating the need for folks to get better training because they need it on so many levels. So many get complacent after the CHL is obtained, they lull themselves into a state that is not reality. Trust me on this--training is a lifestyle, not something you do once a month or once every four years! I apologize for not making myself clear--I am 100% behind right to carry, but being in a proffession that does not forgive error, I am always challenging myself and others.

Stay Safe.

[flintknapper]

Flintknapper

Let me be clear. I want advanced training (including retention training) to be available in a progressive plan, after a CHL has been issued. I am not trying to make it harder for people to get a CHL--I am advocating the need for folks to get better training because they need it on so many levels. So many get complacent after the CHL is obtained, they lull themselves into a state that is not reality. Trust me on this--training is a lifestyle, not something you do once a month or once every four years! I apologize for not making myself clear--I am 100% behind right to carry, but being in a proffession that does not forgive error, I am always challenging myself and others.

Stay Safe.

I thought advanced training was already available.

Ranger, we are on the "same page" as concerns training, I think it is a good thing....but the amount (and what type) must ultimately be decided by the person trying to defend themselves.

I recognize your Profession is unforgiving and intense. I suspect it is difficult not to project that into everyday life. Occasionally.. we have someone come through the Dojo who is fresh out of the military and it is a challenge to get the "gung ho" out of them long enough to teach them "street techniques".

Their training and mindset is both appropriate and necessary for survival on the battlefield, but is sometimes a stumbling block when they get back home.

Those who have trained to a high level and live every minute with the "warrior" spirit naturally notice the deficiencies in the general gun toting populace. Often times they are eager to point this out...and generally maintain that everyone is only one step away from certain death... if they don't get "X" amount of training. Of course, this would be true in your environment.

I truly believe you are here only to help share some of what you know (as it might apply to civilian life) and not here to simply show us all you know (there are plenty of warrior forums for that).

Please do not take offense if some us have questions or differing opinions.

Thank you for your contributions and I hope you will continue.

Flint.

[Ranger+P+]

Wilco Flint. I guess when you have seen what I have seen in terms of self-defense and know beyond a shadow of a doubt what human beings are capable of doing to each other, you do want to point out deficiencies. I learned in the military and recently in Private Security that new training is written in blood, meaning, you or somebody you know has to become a statistic before additional training is added--that is unacceptable to me, and anybody who has to see "statistics" in order to train differently or accept new changes in training philosopy is already digging their grave. Pardon my bluntness, I have buried some good friends because of complacency, I do not want that to be anybody in present company.

I am sure with your martial arts background, you have some training in Combatives--another passion of mine.(Besides Gun Retention--ha ha..I wonder if it will cause as big a stir as this one did!) I had an article published in September 2007 of Combat Handguns in the Letters section you should read. I will pput it in a seperate post for all to read.

Thanks

[jbirds1210]

The Pin & Spin. If you are intersted Seamus, I would be glad to show or describe this counter to you--it is simple and effective.

Yes, I would be interested, as I have not heard of it.

- Jim

Jim-

I would be more than happy to work with you on this method.....it is effective, but in my opinion only one small part of the solution needed to take care of the person trying to take your weapon away. Pick a Sunday and we can work on it out at PSC. Take care.

Jason

[Ranger+P+]

Jbirds--thanks for stepping out. For those who are near Lufkin, I would be glad to train with you in any area.

-Steve

[seamusTX]

I would be more than happy to work with you on this method.....it is effective, but in my opinion only one small part of the solution needed to take care of the person trying to take your weapon away. Pick a Sunday and we can work on it out at PSC.

Thanks. It takes quite a bit of arrangement for me to go to PSC, but I'll let you know if I can.

- Jim

[flintknapper]

Jbirds--thanks for stepping out. For those who are near Lufkin, I would be glad to train with you in any area.

-Steve

Steve

I live about 20 miles from Lufkin...and several other members live in (or around) Lufkin as well.

I would love to get together some time and exchange ideas on empty hands techniques. You and I are in complete agreement concerning the likelihood of CHL holders needing these skills just to get to their weapon.

Let me know when you have some free time and we'll try to get together if you have any interest.

Thanks,

Flint.

[Ranger+P+]

Flint

Sounds good--my schedule is wide open anyday except Sundays. PM me with a date and place.

Stay Salty.