Shoot or not to shoot...

[Sangiovese]

Now I have to state here that I wasn’t thinking about any legal ramifications such as law suits, so that had nothing to due with staying my hand. The truth of the matter is I just never felt the guy needed to be shot, and that’s the only reason I didn’t pull the trigger.

And when I say needed to be shot, I mean “needed�…it’s got nothing to do with the legal definition of right to use deadly force, or did I have a right to send a moral message about my belongings, or a belief that life is sacred…he just never represented a threat that I felt needed me to pull the trigger.

In the end, THAT is what matters. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

If you never felt that he presented enough of a threat to warrant pulling the trigger, then you did the exact right thing.

Even though I said that I would have shot when he started advancing toward me, it's hard to be sure without actually being in the moment and seeing how it actually unfolds, rather than the mental image you conjure up by reading an account of it.

I think you are to be commended for holding your fire. You decided he wasn't a deadly threat and the following events proved that you were right. I think the situation ended well.

[txinvestigator]

Now I have to state here that I wasn’t thinking about any legal ramifications such as law suits, so that had nothing to due with staying my hand. The truth of the matter is I just never felt the guy needed to be shot, and that’s the only reason I didn’t pull the trigger.

And when I say needed to be shot, I mean “needed�…it’s got nothing to do with the legal definition of right to use deadly force, or did I have a right to send a moral message about my belongings, or a belief that life is sacred…he just never represented a threat that I felt needed me to pull the trigger.

In the end, THAT is what matters. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

If you never felt that he presented enough of a threat to warrant pulling the trigger, then you did the exact right thing.

Even though I said that I would have shot when he started advancing toward me, it's hard to be sure without actually being in the moment and seeing how it actually unfolds, rather than the mental image you conjure up by reading an account of it.

I think you are to be commended for holding your fire. You decided he wasn't a deadly threat and the following events proved that you were right. I think the situation ended well.

Very well said.

[phddan]

Every one of us have different levels of risk we are willing to take. No one way is the ultimate right way. You did good the way you handled that situation, and can live with your choice. Can't nobody fault that.

Myself, the thieving punk would have been there for the cops one way or the other. I have worked way to hard for the things I own, and can't stand a thief.



"Bad guys you kill probably have even worse friends and relatives who won't see your side of the story, no matter how clear-cut it seems to you. The likelihood of retaliation problems would be greater, not less, if you had shot him."

This is a grey area to me. Kill or wound, or hold for the cops, and he might have friends willing to retaliate.
However, he might go back and get some friends after he escapes, to come back with him. 50/50 either way.


Again, I aint faulting you one bit on the way you handled it. Just giving another perspective.

Dan

[TX Rancher]

Again, I aint faulting you one bit on the way you handled it. Just giving another perspective.
Dan

That’s exactly what the intent of the post was Dan, to get diverse opinions on shoot or don’t shoot, and why.

Ethically, I have no problems with the way I handled the situation and I believe legally I was covered …now technically I made several major bonehead moves and hopefully learned my lesson. My training has been modified to take into account my mistakes in hopes I don’t do them again.

But you’re spot on by posting your perspective on the question of shoot/don’t shoot.

The reason I picked this scenario is it really happened, so the discussion of whether it’s a viable scenario is mute. It also, in my opinion, showed how in our everyday life we could walk into a situation completely unaware of it until it’s too late to avoid the confrontation.

It also has the option of shoot/don’t shoot without the criminal prosecution aspects hanging over your head, so the decision to shoot or not can be made/discussed without bringing that into the argument. By that I mean until he dropped the “weapon�, I think the average citizen would allow that it was a legal shoot. Even once he dropped the weapon, his advance towards you could probably be interpreted as a threat. So it becomes more a questions of personal ethics.

Ethics to me is that big gray area between white and black, and at least for me there’s rarely a clear cut answer…if there is, it’s in the black or white area.

So I hope more folks, no matter what their view is, will take time to respond.

[hoss4570]

You got to "go with your gut" but like I posted earlier, I had three chances to kill the guy, and did'nt (you'd be surprised what goes through your head at times like that, like how much trouble will I be in, and how much is it gonna cost to kill this creep) but the gut I LET LIVE came back and beat the compound krud out of me with a two by four, darn near killing me. I think I will act differently in the future. I HOPE I NEVER have to make that decision.

[seamusTX]

... the gut [guy?] I LET LIVE came back and beat the compound krud out of me with a two by four, darn near killing me. I think I will act differently in the future.

That's reprensible, but you could have sent him to the Great Beyond and had his three brothers or 15 fellow gang members come after you. It happens. You can never predict all the hypothetical consequences.

- Jim

[govnor]

You got to "go with your gut" but like I posted earlier, I had three chances to kill the guy, and did'nt (you'd be surprised what goes through your head at times like that, like how much trouble will I be in, and how much is it gonna cost to kill this creep) but the gut I LET LIVE came back and beat the compound krud out of me with a two by four, darn near killing me. I think I will act differently in the future. I HOPE I NEVER have to make that decision.

I see a couple of differences in these two scenarios. In TXrancher's scenario, the guy was obviously scared. He probably really did just want to get out of there. If you're on someone's property, stealing their stuff, and they walk up pointing a gun at you...it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that they could legally blast you into oblivion. I seriously doubt that guy would even drive down the same road again.

In Hoss's case. The guy was obviously nuts. Facing down a man with a pistol, on his own property, and still not caring about it is downright crazy. That guy is one that is a real threat to life and limb, as you unfortunately found out. Especially after he came back a couple of times. I don't know the exact legalities, but if you're crippled and the guy is in your face then I don't see a jury convicting you of defending yourself. I'd be willing to bet anything he was also a drug user.

I was also wondering about something, Hoss. You said he was screaming at your daughter's house. Did you know this guy? Was it a former boyfriend of your daughter's or something? If so, that would explain your hesitation about shooting him.

[NcongruNt]

Now, had it been a 14 year old kid then I wouldn't shoot unless there was an obvious threat such as a gun pointed at me. Guy in his mid twenties should know better. I say take him down. If you're worried about lawsuits then you could always just clean up the mess and bury him in the back pasture

A 14-year-old kid will kill you just as quickly as a 20-something, if not quicker. Although most kids I've taught are great, every so often I get a sociopath.

Very true. My mother was murdered by a 16 year-old. I'd also say that because of a lack of history of thinking things through, someone younger is more likely to panic and do something very stupid if they feel trapped. Teenagers are also much more likely to perceive themselves as invincible and try to take on someone with a weapon.

[GlockenHammer]

TXRancher,

I don't fault your decisions at all. There are always intangibles that you can't put into words that guide you into predicting the other person's intentions and inclinations.

As for those concerned with the BG coming back for retaliation or thinking you are an easy target because you didn't shoot, I say bologna. Because you were armed and confronted the BG, I'd say that classifies you as not an easy target that I'd want to try my luck with again. As for retaliation, there isn't much to retaliate for--it's not like you wounded him and then let him go. I think they'd be glad to just get out of there and never come back. And if they do, hopefully you'll be prepared for that scenario as well.

I think you did well.

[govnor]

Now, had it been a 14 year old kid then I wouldn't shoot unless there was an obvious threat such as a gun pointed at me. Guy in his mid twenties should know better. I say take him down. If you're worried about lawsuits then you could always just clean up the mess and bury him in the back pasture

A 14-year-old kid will kill you just as quickly as a 20-something, if not quicker. Although most kids I've taught are great, every so often I get a sociopath.

Very true. My mother was murdered by a 16 year-old. I'd also say that because of a lack of history of thinking things through, someone younger is more likely to panic and do something very stupid if they feel trapped. Teenagers are also much more likely to perceive themselves as invincible and try to take on someone with a weapon.

Well, if I saw a gun, it doesn't matter how old you are...which is what I was pointing out. 16 year old with a screwdriver...I dunno... If he was approaching fast, then yes, empty the clip and add another.

[hoss4570]

You said he was screaming at your daughter's house. Did you know this guy?

He was screaming at my sisters house, who lived in our rent house next door, and no, I did'nt know him. I had seen him a time or two, but did'nt know his name. He was apparantly looking for the guy that lived with my sister. OH YEAH, he was out on parole for robbing and beating a 80 year old woman out of Tarrant county................REAL nice guy.

[hoss4570]

... the gut [guy?] I LET LIVE came back and beat the compound krud out of me with a two by four, darn near killing me. I think I will act differently in the future.

That's reprensible, but you could have sent him to the Great Beyond and had his three brothers or 15 fellow gang members come after you. It happens. You can never predict all the hypothetical consequences.

- Jim

Oh he sent two of his little gang banging thug buddies to my house to "talk me into" dropping charges against him, but I told them to get off of my property. I refuse to live my life in fear about what his family or friends will do to me and my family. Thats not why I did'nt shoot. I did'nt shoot because..................I don't know why. I really don't. All of my friends said "MAN, I would have thought YOU would have shot him. I would have!!!!!" You NEVER know how your gonna react in a situation like that untill your there.

[kw5kw]

I think you did correctly Rancher.

[govnor]

You said he was screaming at your daughter's house. Did you know this guy?

He was screaming at my sisters house, who lived in our rent house next door, and no, I did'nt know him. I had seen him a time or two, but did'nt know his name. He was apparantly looking for the guy that lived with my sister. OH YEAH, he was out on parole for robbing and beating a 80 year old woman out of Tarrant county................REAL nice guy.

I guess I should have re-read. For some reason I thought it was your daughter's house...

Well, after this knowledge and what we know now about him beating you up with a 2X4, yes, it would have been in your best interest to shoot the guy. Of course hind sight is 20/20. I'm sorry that happened to you and I'm also sorry that guy is still alive...

[hoss4570]

He was sentanced to five years, did three and is now out. I hav'nt seen him nor do I want to.