Mythbuster's Tueller Drill (aka "knife to a gun fight")

[LAYGO]

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I did a search on all Mythbuster's thread (Mythbusters + knife = 0 results) & searched for the Youtube URL, all turned up bumpkis.

So, I saw this & the entire time I'm waiting for them to say "Tueller Driller" (wiki/ article by Tueller). They never did.

Again, it PROVES that 21 feet is that magical number where you don't want to let someone get within. Also, this should prove that one in the chamber is THE ONLY WAY TO GO.

Although, their initial test of running away was flawed. They should've had Jaime an arm's length away at start instead of the "bad breath" distance.

Enjoy & discuss.

[MoJo]

I did a search on all Mythbuster's thread (Mythbusters + knife = 0 results) & searched for the Youtube URL, all turned up bumpkis.

So, I saw this & the entire time I'm waiting for them to say "Tueller Driller" (wiki/ article by Tueller). They never did.

Again, it PROVES that 21 feet is that magical number where you don't want to let someone get within. Also, this should prove that one in the chamber is THE ONLY WAY TO GO.

Although, their initial test of running away was flawed. They should've had Jaime an arm's length away at start instead of the "bad breath" distance.

Enjoy & discuss.

When you are facing an opponent armed with a knife once he starts to rush you MOVE off the line of attack. You can gain valuable seconds by moving back and to one side or the other.

[race4beer]

IMO - bottom line in this, is that even at 24 feet, Jamie's momentum was easily enough to still land a good knife to the chest. Pretty scary, we all know that one shot is likely to not drop a BG.

[LAYGO]

When you are facing an opponent armed with a knife once he starts to rush you MOVE off the line of attack. You can gain valuable seconds by moving back and to one side or the other.

Seconds? I don't think it's possible. I agree with the sidestep. There's another section of this video that's not shown for their "research" & just testing throwing knives vs drawing/racking/firing. Adam was able to fire & side step the knife throw.

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Watch the full Epi if you haven't seen it:
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[Cedar Park Dad]

When you are facing an opponent armed with a knife once he starts to rush you MOVE off the line of attack. You can gain valuable seconds by moving back and to one side or the other.

Good advice. I don't know if I'd have the presence of mind to do so though. Its one reason I shifted from a 1911 to a DAO. I because less certain I'd be able to think even enough to take the safety off.

[jsenner]

Also, this should prove that one in the chamber is THE ONLY WAY TO GO.

I disagree that it proves this. The supposed absolute of always carry chambered in this scenario is in my mind a crutch for lack of proficiency. Fully admitting that I do not possess such proficiency myself, I have trained under people that could very easily draw from concealment, charge, and fire on target before anyone else in the class could fire from chambered (and some tried holstered outside of concealment).

This, of course, ignores other variables like being in a situation where one arm is disabled, etc. Should you carry chambered? Yea, for most of us, probably so. Does the Tueller drill *prove* that? Not nearly as adequately as other situations do.

[LAYGO]

Also, this should prove that one in the chamber is THE ONLY WAY TO GO.

I disagree that it proves this. The supposed absolute of always carry chambered in this scenario is in my mind a crutch for lack of proficiency. Fully admitting that I do not possess such proficiency myself, I have trained under people that could very easily draw from concealment, charge, and fire on target before anyone else in the class could fire from chambered (and some tried holstered outside of concealment).

This, of course, ignores other variables like being in a situation where one arm is disabled, etc. Should you carry chambered? Yea, for most of us, probably so. Does the Tueller drill *prove* that? Not nearly as adequately as other situations do.

Ok, I will agree that it doesn't prove it, but highlights the fact that adding another action to your draw where it can cause you to unsuccessfully get a shot off in time. It happens to Adam a couple of times & once Jaime started from the 18' line, he couldn't get his gun up in time.

Now, the video highlights a singled handled grip & shot, not a double handed grip extended or a quick defensive shot 'from the hip'.

[gfmun]

I am sorry to say I watched the video. It does not deserve any discussion, as it is really dumb!

[ammoboy2]

When you are facing an opponent armed with a knife once he starts to rush you MOVE off the line of attack. You can gain valuable seconds by moving back and to one side or the other.

I agree with this except the backing up part. If you are lucky you can back up half as fast as someone running forward. The best strategy is to step to the side, this forces the attacker to reajust and change their vector. It is also more difficult to turn while running forward which increases the targeting problem for the attacker. The step to the side provides significant time to engage the knife wielder. The simple side step works even at distances as close as 10 ft while this drill demonstrates you need 21 ft straight for striaght on. Additionally without the side step off the line of attack, a successful handgun shot, which is frequenly not an instant stop anyway, you most likely will be injured. So if you are still on the line of attack then the wounded attacker can still severly injure or kill you. That is not a winning combination, but bringing a gun to a knifefight.

[BigBangSmallBucks]

The guy laughing while getting stabbed in the chest is just classic

[JSThane]

Here's another thing to consider: how accessible is your gun?

I know on my duty rig, where my sidearm is openly carried, I can fairly easily draw and fire within the time it takes someone to rush me with a knife from 21 feet - if I'm expecting it. I also know that, if they're at 21 feet, it doesn't matter if I hit him; unless I put a round right through his forehead, I'm fairly guaranteed to get cut/stabbed.

Now, factor in drawing from concealment. Factor in drawing against someone who has already taken the initiative to attack you, someone who is rushing you RIGHT NOW with a cutting or stabbing tool. Or even a club.

You're going to take a moment to recognize the threat, decide on a reaction, and perform the reaction. You're probably going to get cut, stabbed, or whacked. You're probably going to bleed.

That being said, there are a couple things one can do to "practice" for this. The first is the side-step, or "off-lining" as I was taught. Regardless of the martial art, whether hand-and-foot or gunpowder-and-lead, the ability to off-line is fairly crucial in avoiding or lessening the impact of whatever attack is coming at you. Once the attacker has committed to the rush, he has to fight his own momentum in order to change direction. Stepping to the side, while you may still get whacked or cut, removes you from his immediate front, and he has to change direction in order to continue. It also gets your head and vital organs out from his funnel. There's several things one can do here, from trying to trip him (which, of course, can also take you down if not done right), to spinning around behind him, to continuing to the side to escape or maneuver for distance and advantage. These things are probably better told by actual instructor (although I have stayed at a few non-Holiday Inns in my time).

The second is the snap-shot from the hip. My job does not train for "long distance" instinctive shots, but we do work at close-up draw-and-fire drills, from as close as four feet. It's not a perfect solution. It's far from perfect. If you're good, if your gun is easily accessible, drawing from concealment is probably going to take most, if not all, of the time it takes for an attacker to cover 21 feet, and possibly then some. However, it's still useful. If you practice (carefully, of course! - we don't want to see any of US on Youtube!), at drawing and "hip-shooting" at close-range, you'll have an idea of where your bullet will land, and what your gun will do. Don't get any ideas of hip-shooting the knife out of his hand; we're not CASS shooters, and that kind of trick shot is incredibly difficult even under the best of circumstances. However, if you practice off-lining, then off-lining while drawing (empty guns or preferably dummy guns, please! - remember Youtube is not your friend!), then you may be able to get out of the way with only a cut on your arm, and get the gun into play before he comes back again for a second run.

Actual training in these is, again, probably best performed under the auspices of a qualified instructor, not the advice of some dude on the internet with an opinion, of course.

[jmra]

Also, this should prove that one in the chamber is THE ONLY WAY TO GO.

I disagree that it proves this. The supposed absolute of always carry chambered in this scenario is in my mind a crutch for lack of proficiency. Fully admitting that I do not possess such proficiency myself, I have trained under people that could very easily draw from concealment, charge, and fire on target before anyone else in the class could fire from chambered (and some tried holstered outside of concealment).

This, of course, ignores other variables like being in a situation where one arm is disabled, etc. Should you carry chambered? Yea, for most of us, probably so. Does the Tueller drill *prove* that? Not nearly as adequately as other situations do.

It proves it for 99% of the people. I'll give you your 1% which is really not even relevant to the conversation.

[Excaliber]

I did a search on all Mythbuster's thread (Mythbusters + knife = 0 results) & searched for the Youtube URL, all turned up bumpkis.

So, I saw this & the entire time I'm waiting for them to say "Tueller Driller" (wiki/ article by Tueller). They never did.

Again, it PROVES that 21 feet is that magical number where you don't want to let someone get within. Also, this should prove that one in the chamber is THE ONLY WAY TO GO.

Although, their initial test of running away was flawed. They should've had Jaime an arm's length away at start instead of the "bad breath" distance.

Enjoy & discuss.

When you are facing an opponent armed with a knife once he starts to rush you MOVE off the line of attack. You can gain valuable seconds by moving back and to one side or the other.

This is true, but what's not often mentioned is that the timing is critical.

If you move to soon, your adversary will correct and follow you.

If you move too late, well, you might as well not have moved at all.

[Excaliber]

Also, this should prove that one in the chamber is THE ONLY WAY TO GO.

I disagree that it proves this. The supposed absolute of always carry chambered in this scenario is in my mind a crutch for lack of proficiency. Fully admitting that I do not possess such proficiency myself, I have trained under people that could very easily draw from concealment, charge, and fire on target before anyone else in the class could fire from chambered (and some tried holstered outside of concealment).

This, of course, ignores other variables like being in a situation where one arm is disabled, etc. Should you carry chambered? Yea, for most of us, probably so. Does the Tueller drill *prove* that? Not nearly as adequately as other situations do.

There are extraordinary people who can do extraordinary things, but that doesn't make what they do a good idea for the rest of us.

The only instructor I ever trained with who could reliably charge a gun in Condition 3 and fire accurately in an impressively short time was an active duty Israeli Defense Force commando. Even for him, it still took measurable time and would be a major disadvantage under a Tueller drill scenario.

Although he drilled it as the only safe way to carry a pistol, none of the people in that class bought it as a good idea.

[Excaliber]

When you are facing an opponent armed with a knife once he starts to rush you MOVE off the line of attack. You can gain valuable seconds by moving back and to one side or the other.

I agree with this except the backing up part. If you are lucky you can back up half as fast as someone running forward. The best strategy is to step to the side, this forces the attacker to reajust and change their vector. It is also more difficult to turn while running forward which increases the targeting problem for the attacker. The step to the side provides significant time to engage the knife wielder. The simple side step works even at distances as close as 10 ft while this drill demonstrates you need 21 ft straight for striaght on. Additionally without the side step off the line of attack, a successful handgun shot, which is frequenly not an instant stop anyway, you most likely will be injured. So if you are still on the line of attack then the wounded attacker can still severly injure or kill you. That is not a winning combination, but bringing a gun to a knifefight.

A subtlety to the tactic of stepping to the side off the line of attack is to do so to the side opposite the one that holds the BG's weapon. If timed right, this sharply limits the range of his edged or impact weapon to just slightly beyond his torso because he has to deploy it across his body instead of to the side on the strong side, where he has a full arm's reach. Of course, if he's trained, he'll simply change hands, but most aren't so trained.

Another subtlety (although more debatable) is to focus the one shot you may get off into the pelvic girdle to try to take the BG's undercarriage out from under him so he can't run or maneuver. This too holds no guarantees, but it's a more likely stop than a center mass shot and a more likely hit than a head shot attempted under these circumstances.