My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request

[C-dub]

Hey there Gigag04.

There you go getting all logical on me. I agree with everything you said and I would not have been able to do that until TAM let me shoot his .45 one day at the range. I would have never given the .45 a chance, perceiving it as a larger round that would have more recoil than my .40's. Wow! Was I wrong.

It's all your fault TAM. I have been thinking more and more about a .45 in a Glock or some 1911.

[CC Italian]

Yep, your right! It would attract to much attention and the police would be called in almost all parts of the state and even if you could conceal a shotgun legally it would have to be much smaller then an 18inch barrel. I wouldn't mind carrying a short barrel 20 gauge during winter months under a jacket or coat but once again its not legal.

[puma guy]

why would I not carry the heavier, bigger, faster bullet?

9mm is faster than all the above, except the 10mm.

oh, man, do we have to do this again? Fast != Better.

The image below is from http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defen ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. That page alone should keep everybody reading for a while, then maybe this thread will die (if only I would stop responding to Giga's posts ).

(Just to be clear: I'm not saying Giga's opinion is wrong, but I am saying I don't share his sentiments)

I'm gonna contact Myth Busters

[Zoomie]

While a 9mm has less recoil and is less snappy, I'm not so sure a 9mm +P is any less snappy than a .40 from the same gun. If you're going to make a compassion, go apples to apples. Same goes with comparing the 5" 1911 in .45 to say, a compact M&P .40. If anything, as technology and meteorology increases, more high pressure rounds will be coming out. Also,

RA40TA RA45T RA9TA
SYMBOL OVERVIEW
Cartridge 40 Smith and Wesson 45 Automatic 9mm Luger P
Bullet Wt. Grs. 165 230 127
Bullet Type T-Series T-Series T-Series

VELOCITY IN FEET PER SECOND (fps)
Muzzle 1140 885 1250
5 1129 881 1236
25 1091 867 1183
50 1056 850 1125
100 988 818 1038
ENERGY IN FOOT POUNDS (ft-lbs.)
Engmuz 476 400 441
25 436 384 395
50 409 369 357
100 357 342 304

Also note that since velocity is a square term in the energy equation, but is V^1 in the momentum equation, both the .45 and the .40 will have relatively higher momentum than energy when compared to the 9mm +P round

[Zoomie]

I apologies that the info on the above post looks so poor, I need to figure out why it looks different on the preview than the actual post. (Also note that a .40+P from Buffalo Bore produces 582ft/lb of energy at the muzzle (155gr @ 1300fps)).

[chuckybrown]

You know, 99.99% of this debate is personal opinion, and that's all good. I've got everything from .22 wheel guns up to my S&W .500 magnum. (Hogs are highly allergic to those rounds, by the way)

Personally, I've never experienced any issues with recoil, whether from a handgun or a rifle. Doesn't make me tentative prior to trigger pull, nor does the anticipation of the recoil cause me to shoot off target. But, that's just me. On the other hand, I see everything from guys that just have bad form because they know the handgun recoil is coming, to guys buying .300 Weatherby Magnum rifles with muzzle brakes that STILL cannot group 10" at 100 yards.

I think it's an involuntary reaction, meaning you cannot control your mental & physical response to recoil. So, find something that works with your mechanics & your brain, and get good at shooting that. If that means the "snappy" .40 isn't for you, then get a nice....(as someone said) "fluid" .45.

The debate over caliber size has raged for years. The only thing that isn't debatable: SHOT PLACEMENT.

My .02 cents, and I'm back quiet.

Peace.

[Heartland Patriot]

Yep, your right! It would attract to much attention and the police would be called in almost all parts of the state and even if you could conceal a shotgun legally it would have to be much smaller then an 18inch barrel. I wouldn't mind carrying a short barrel 20 gauge during winter months under a jacket or coat but once again its not legal.

I think you missed the point of what I stated. The State of Texas, to the best of my knowledge, does NOT have ANY rules regarding the carry of long-guns, in general. The laws are about concealing and carrying HANDGUNS. It is, once again to the best of my knowledge, LEGAL TO CONCEAL a long-gun. It is simply not PRACTICAL to do so. And since it cannot be concealed, you would probably get someone calling you in as "MWAG" (man with a gun) even though carrying a rifle or shotgun technically is legal and they would possibly try to bring charges against you for having the weapon "in a manner calculated to alarm" which is a breach of the peace. So, I am not saying that it is something you want to go and do, but once again, I do not believe it to be ILLEGAL to do so...and the law very often seems to be about splitting hairs. If I am wrong, will someone with greater knowledge of the Texas Penal Code please point me in the right direction? This sort of thing is just like that whole "brandishing" business that some states have...it just doesn't exist in Texas law. I now return you to the regularly scheduled program staring gigag04 and his hatred of the .40 S&W..

[CC Italian]

I see what you mean Heartland, I honestly don't know! Concealing an 18 barrel shotgun would be hard under a trench coat even. You would need something with a pistol grip and a barrel around 10inches. A LEO buddy has a short barrel tactical shotgun and I think the barrel is about 14 inches with a pistol grip and I still don't think he could conceal it easily. Here is an old thread on the CHL board to help you out but they pretty much came to the same conclusion you did. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=21816&start=15

[Heartland Patriot]

I see what you mean Heartland, I honestly don't know! Concealing an 18 barrel shotgun would be hard under a trench coat even. You would need something with a pistol grip and a barrel around 10inches. A LEO buddy has a short barrel tactical shotgun and I think the barrel is about 14 inches with a pistol grip and I still don't think he could conceal it easily. Here is an old thread on the CHL board to help you out but they pretty much came to the same conclusion you did. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=21816&start=15

Thanks for posting the link, I will check it out.

[Jimineer]

I wonder if the standard issue for the FBI is still the Glock in .40, I think the 23 and 27? I think their SWAT and HRT guys have some type of 1911.

SWAT and HRT are SMG/Rifle-response type teams. What sidearm they carry is far less important than their main weapon. Field officers, however, only have one weapon on their body.

I think these "caliber wars" never play out well. The 40S&W has a LONG record now of being an effective defensive caliber. So does the 9mm and the 45ACP. You don't have to like any or all of them, but if you want to say one is statistically less effective than the other, you better be willing to drag up a LOT of empirical evidence. Agencies all over the US use a variety of calibers, from the 5.7mm to the 45ACP. It's true the .40S&W is popular, and economies of scale will certainly have an effect on caliber selection with a lot of agencies. Ballistics-wise though, the difference isn't very much between it and the 9mm or 45ACP in defensive loads.

Which is exactly why issues like felt recoil and ammo cost weigh heavily in this discussion.

How much of the felt recoil is a function of the platform vs. the round itself. So if guns designed for the .40S&W are not properly designed around the round, then maybe the felt recoil difference compared to a .45 for example, is a deficiency in the platform. So maybe a .45 in a gun not designed around that round may have even worse felt recoil. Just asking. I have no experience in these matters. I do know that my P229 Sig with a .40 barrel is pretty manageable.

[The Annoyed Man]

When I bought my Kahr 9mm pocket gun, that marked my foray into the 9mm world as an EDC. My wife has a G19, and I've had the opportunity to shoot a number of other 9mm guns over the years, but until I bought the Kahr, my semiauto carry guns have always been .45s with the exception of one .40—a H&K USP Compact.

I owned and carried that USP fairly regularly for a couple of years. I really liked the gun, and I have some regrets about selling it. But I sold it because I couldn't stand the caliber, and I wanted the money so as to finance the purchase of a double stack polymer .45. I ultimately bought an M&P45.

All of that is to say that I've had a fair amount of shooting experience now with all three calibers. I never had a lack of confidence in the wounding capacity of a .40. I just didn't have confidence in my ability to shoot it well. It wasn't until just before I sold it that I got to where the perceived snappiness of the round didn't both me anymore. To put that in some kind of perspective, it doesn't bother me much at all to shoot full-on SD loads in .357 magnum out of a scandium j-frame; so it's not recoil per se that bothered me about the .40, but just how much that snappiness made the gun rock back, making it harder to get back on target.

I figured I should go back to what I know best, and I am very comfortable with shooting .45 ACP, and it is hard to question its track record as an SD round. It is certainly as capable as any of the other "major power" SD cartridges, and maybe better than some. Plus, fewer issues with bullet setback and stuff like that.

[koolaid]

I agree that "compromise" rounds should be avoided at all costs which is why I recommend that you only carry guns in 22LR and 50BMG.

[gigag04]

I agree that "compromise" rounds should be avoided at all costs which is why I recommend that you only carry guns in 22LR and 50BMG.

Brilliant observation IMO.

[kragluver]

I've only shot a .40 Glock once and I did find it "snappy". Does anyone here have experience shooting a .40 vs .45 in the same gun platform? Felt recoil has a lot to do with grip design and bore axis height, etc. Saying the recoil of a .40 in a Glock is much worse than a .45 in a 1911 is an apples/oranges comparison. I'd be curious what folks think about a .40 vs .45 in a 1911 (or a Glock, etc.).

[Medic624]

I've only shot a .40 Glock once and I did find it "snappy". Does anyone here have experience shooting a .40 vs .45 in the same gun platform? Felt recoil has a lot to do with grip design and bore axis height, etc. Saying the recoil of a .40 in a Glock is much worse than a .45 in a 1911 is an apples/oranges comparison. I'd be curious what folks think about a .40 vs .45 in a 1911 (or a Glock, etc.).

Hmmmmm. Ya know... That's an interesting idea... I wonder if anyone has done recoil studies using say an XD .40, XD .45 and a 9mm all service model 4" with offnthe shelf range ammo to measure the energy etc...