I was pretty well set to transition from 40s&w to 9mm for carry, but I just read this and now question the effectivness of the 9mm round. Since the guy was a competition shooter I just wonder if he had some light loads. I can't imagine that factory ammo would be so weak. I wonder what his gun and ammo combination was. Now that it is winter and people are wearing more clothes I wonder if this would even penerate a heavy coat. However, its always a good thing when no-one gets killed.
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9mm effectivness
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stroo
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It sounds like the bullet hit him in the forehead which is the toughest part of the head. Not really a good place to shoot someone. So I don't think the real problem is the caliber as much as placement. You have to wonder why the victim was shooting for the head instead of COM.
BTW, how cold is it in Port Arthur this time of year. I didn't think it ever got cold there.
BTW, how cold is it in Port Arthur this time of year. I didn't think it ever got cold there.
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casselthief
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maybe he doesn't know he's supposed to be looking for it!!sparx wrote:Wow. If that boy hasn't found religion yet, I don't think he ever will.
anyway, maybe the head shot was was just the natural rise after firing shots, or firing under duress, who knows, I mean, he did hit him squaw in the noggin, that's high points, right?
there's gotta be some more, "That's usin' yer head." jokes in here somewhere!
"Good, Bad, I'm the guy with the gun..."
"Nothing is everything, but everything is something." Massad Ayoob
Placement is everything. As far as the medical experts are concerned only a shot in the "lower" part of the brain or the spinal column is an "instant stop."
A lot of information here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/ about penetration etc. . .
Placement is everything. As far as the medical experts are concerned only a shot in the "lower" part of the brain or the spinal column is an "instant stop."
A lot of information here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/ about penetration etc. . .
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HighVelocity
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I am not a bit concerned about the 11 9mm 124gr +P Gold Dots that are riding on my hip right now. I am confident they will be effective if I do my part.
I am scared of empty guns and keep mine loaded at all times. The family knows the guns are loaded and treats them with respect. Loaded guns cause few accidents; empty guns kill people every year. -Elmer Keith. 1961
I would never be, Certain, of anything. Including the one shot stop. Just because someone takes a shot to the spine doesn't mean its over. This guy did his part. Which is the reason I wonder what the gun and ammo combo was. If he was using 124gr+p Gold Dots, Then I would be a little concerned. Don't know if this was the one and only shot or the one that hit. The guy implied that they were very close. I don't really doubt the effectiveness of the 9mm... or the .22lr or the .38spl or a slingshot. Anything can be effective if all of the circumstances are right. I might still switch to the 9mm myself.
He did achieve what I would hope all of us want. Just to stop the attack. He did with no loss of life. Sounds like a higher power was watching over both of them.
Eric
He did achieve what I would hope all of us want. Just to stop the attack. He did with no loss of life. Sounds like a higher power was watching over both of them.
Eric
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AV8R
That's what's in mine, and they're good. The 9mm has the advantage of reliable expansion with deep penetration. The Speer GDs in .357 Sig are the choice, after extensive research, of the Air Marshals' service. The 9mm in +p is, in practice, the equivalent, so you need not worry about effectiveness (unless you forsee the need to shoot through the passenger in front of you to get to the bad guy).HighVelocity wrote:I am not a bit concerned about the 11 9mm 124gr +P Gold Dots that are riding on my hip right now. I am confident they will be effective if I do my part.
Last edited by AV8R on Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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txinvestigator
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stroo wrote:It sounds like the bullet hit him in the forehead which is the toughest part of the head. Not really a good place to shoot someone.
. We don't know that he was. That said, if I am confident that I can make a head shot I would not hesitate to do so.You have to wonder why the victim was shooting for the head instead of COM.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
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txinvestigator
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Bullets can and do act strange. We had an officer shot 6 times with a .45, pretty much point blank COM and survive.
We had a guy get shot in the upper leg with a .22, and he died.
We had a guy get shot in the upper leg with a .22, and he died.
*CHL Instructor*
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan
Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
9mm in Port Arthur
This story just confirms something I have always believed. My wife is from Port Arthur and can be very hard headed. Must be the something in the air in Port Arthur that makes people that way. This story proves my suspicions.
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G.C.Montgomery
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Re: 9mm effectivness
Oh yeah?...Well, if you really want something to make you question the effectiveness of handguns in general, let me lay an experience on you. When I was a kid in middle school and high school, I spent a couple summers as a gopher for one of my sister's medical school mentors. One day I was near the ER when they rolled in a guy who'd attempted to commit suicide by placing a .44 caliber Smith&Wesson in contact with his temple and pulling the trigger.ea40ss wrote:I was pretty well set to transition from 40s&w to 9mm for carry, but I just read this and now question the effectivness of the 9mm round. Since the guy was a competition shooter I just wonder if he had some light loads. I can't imagine that factory ammo would be so weak. I wonder what his gun and ammo combination was. Now that it is winter and people are wearing more clothes I wonder if this would even penerate a heavy coat...
When Dumb Dumb arrived in the ER he was animated, combative and obviously in a great deal of pain. His head was leaking profusely from the left side and there were obvious powder burns where the skin was still intact. There appeared to be a 2-inch gaping wound with hanging skin on the left side of his head behind and above his eye. On the opposite side of his head was a large bump.
Long story short, examination revealed none of the expected internal damage to the brain or eyes. Because he hadn't opened his eyes and they appeared to be leaking blood, it had been assumed he'd nucleated them. The got him cleaned up and guess what...Dumb Dumb had a very hard head and a truly wide streak of good luck. The bullet had apparently deflected off the skull and traced around to the otherside of his head where it stopped just behind the right eye...That's the bump we saw.
So the ER doc sedates Dumb Dumb, makes a small incision on the bump and with just a little prodding, a well rounded, .44cal projectile was expressed from the incision like a teenager popping the worlds biggest zit. Dumb Dumb was subsequently sent to my sister in the psych ward for observation and evaluation. He walked out of the hospital within a few days with prescriptions for pain, infection and manic depression.
The point lurking here is that it's not that big a surprise that a bullet is stuck in the fatty tissue of a hardend criminal's forehead. I'm sure his mother missed many opportunities to take advantage of a soft posterior region whenever he acted up as a child. Had she taken the time out of her day to show she cared and beat him as required, he probably wouldn't have that bullet stuck in his head right now. All joking aside, handgun bullets, regardless of caliber, have a very hard time penetrating the human skull. So don't judge the performance of 9mm on this one case alone.
Last edited by G.C.Montgomery on Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
When you take the time out of your day to beat someone, it has a much longer lasting effect on their demeanor than simply shooting or tazing them.
G. C. Montgomery, Jr.
G. C. Montgomery, Jr.