another beating at a McDonalds

[A-R]

What do you do after you produce a weapon and start issuing commands, and no one obeys you?

To put it bluntly, what do you think is going to happen when a white man in plain clothes pulls a gun in a crowd of angry and excited black people?

What are the friends or relatives of the combatants going to do?

Please don't call me a racist. This is a real situation that police officers often face. And the police have more legal authority behind them and can call for backup.

- Jim

EVERYONE should read and think long and hard about what Jim has written above. Very good advice.

[suthdj]

Gotta be careful though. If you don't know what the fight was about or what led up to it and you use that gun, you're really leaving yourself hanging out.

Does it really matter what it was about? The girl was not putting up a fight or much of if any defense this is clearly a beating for whatever reason.

[zero4o3]

Wow, that is a disturbing video. Hope those women are arrested and charged with attempted murder or worse.

After seeing the video, does change my initial stock answer a bit. But still not completely convinced that rushing into to "break it up" or pulling a gun in this situation is best solution.

Others tried to break it up, including what appears to be an older woman (in white warm up suit) and they even get into a brief shoving match with her. So this tells me two things: 1. these aggressive women did have capability to be aggressive toward others (not just the girl in blue top) but 2. they weren't so aggressive that they turned toward others with same lethal force as used on the target of their aggression (girl in blue top).

At some point, if cops or other help didn't arrive quickly, perhaps I would have pulled a gun and told them all to leave or I'd shoot. But before doing so you must decide:

1. will any of THEM pull a gun out of a purse and point/shoot at you? this is especially dangerous if you're holding one or two at gunpoint and a third is to your side just outside your field of view.

2. are there other spectators/hangers on who are WITH what appear to be three aggressive women committing the assault? how will THEY react if you pull a gun? Is there some gangbanger boyfriend waiting in the car outside who would see you pull a gun, then charge in with his own guns blazing?

3. if you're going to draw in this situation, do it from a position of strength and cover/concealment from not only the three or so assaultive women, but also from any associates who may enter the fray from other directions

All of the above is just my own thought processes. I have no formal training in such matters (big reason why I would still hesitate to intervene) other than random reading I've done.

Still say this type of situation should be approached with EXTREME caution, but after seeing just how vicious this beat down was I admit I'd have a hard time just "calling 911 and being a good witness" ... morals/ethics would push me very hard to intervene.

I have to say I agree with you on this one, before I watched the video I was going to say that I may have tried to step infront of when one of the other people were trying to pusht hem away also but not do any more just for fear of not knowing what was going on or there being to many people around to judge who was with who.

but in this situation with an empty restraunt, I would have most likely felt more inclined to intervene

Gotta be careful though. If you don't know what the fight was about or what led up to it and you use that gun, you're really leaving yourself hanging out.

Does it really matter what it was about? The girl was not putting up a fight or much of if any defense this is clearly a beating for whatever reason.

IANAL but from my interpretation of the law, yes it does matter the use of force is not justified to protect some one who provoked a fight or was engaged in criminal activity


PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used;
and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a
Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating
traffic at the time the force was used.
(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the
deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom
the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at
the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using
deadly force as described by this section.


Let me add, that I am not saying I would not have done anythign in this situation. just that it does matter what the fight started about.

[suthdj]

Wow, that is a disturbing video. Hope those women are arrested and charged with attempted murder or worse.

After seeing the video, does change my initial stock answer a bit. But still not completely convinced that rushing into to "break it up" or pulling a gun in this situation is best solution.

Others tried to break it up, including what appears to be an older woman (in white warm up suit) and they even get into a brief shoving match with her. So this tells me two things: 1. these aggressive women did have capability to be aggressive toward others (not just the girl in blue top) but 2. they weren't so aggressive that they turned toward others with same lethal force as used on the target of their aggression (girl in blue top).

At some point, if cops or other help didn't arrive quickly, perhaps I would have pulled a gun and told them all to leave or I'd shoot. But before doing so you must decide:

1. will any of THEM pull a gun out of a purse and point/shoot at you? this is especially dangerous if you're holding one or two at gunpoint and a third is to your side just outside your field of view.

2. are there other spectators/hangers on who are WITH what appear to be three aggressive women committing the assault? how will THEY react if you pull a gun? Is there some gangbanger boyfriend waiting in the car outside who would see you pull a gun, then charge in with his own guns blazing?

3. if you're going to draw in this situation, do it from a position of strength and cover/concealment from not only the three or so assaultive women, but also from any associates who may enter the fray from other directions

All of the above is just my own thought processes. I have no formal training in such matters (big reason why I would still hesitate to intervene) other than random reading I've done.

Still say this type of situation should be approached with EXTREME caution, but after seeing just how vicious this beat down was I admit I'd have a hard time just "calling 911 and being a good witness" ... morals/ethics would push me very hard to intervene.

I have to say I agree with you on this one, before I watched the video I was going to say that I may have tried to step infront of when one of the other people were trying to pusht hem away also but not do any more just for fear of not knowing what was going on or there being to many people around to judge who was with who.

but in this situation with an empty restraunt, I would have most likely felt more inclined to intervene

Gotta be careful though. If you don't know what the fight was about or what led up to it and you use that gun, you're really leaving yourself hanging out.

Does it really matter what it was about? The girl was not putting up a fight or much of if any defense this is clearly a beating for whatever reason.

IANAL but from my interpretation of the law, yes it does matter the use of force is not justified to protect some one who provoked a fight or was engaged in criminal activity


PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used;
and
(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a
Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating
traffic at the time the force was used.
(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the
deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom
the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at
the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using
deadly force as described by this section.

Again it does not matter because what ever she may have done to provoke these females into beating her was mute as she was not even defending herself. she was no threat to the aggressors. Now this does not mean I would draw on them, but would put myself in a position to defend the girl from further beating, then if and when the need arose, draw if I have to.

[wheelgun1958]

At the point they are attempting to drag her out of the store, one might consider that an imminent commission of kidnapping. It would appear that they are inflicting bodily injury during that attempt.

PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A
person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other
under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use
of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated
kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, rob-
bery, or aggravated robbery.

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force
is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For pur-
poses of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by
the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's pur-
pose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly
force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

PENAL CODE
TITLE 5. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PERSON
CHAPTER 20. KIDNAPPING AND UNLAWFUL RESTRAINT
Sec. 20.04. AGGRAVATED KIDNAPPING. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person with the intent to:
(1) hold him for ransom or reward;
(2) use him as a shield or hostage;
(3) facilitate the commission of a felony or the flight after the attempt or commission of a felony;
(4) inflict bodily injury on him or violate or abuse him sexually;
(5) terrorize him or a third person; or

[seamusTX]

While it is important for us to understand Texas law, because most of us spend most of our time in Texas, it would have been irrelevant here. I have no idea what Ohio law on use of force to defend oneself or a third party is.

It's also important to remember when you are traveling out of state. Only about half the states have "Castle Doctrine" or "Stand Your Ground" laws. The rest have explicit or implied duty to retreat.

Some states even have laws that make "brandishing" a criminal offense, and "brandishing" can include any movement toward a concealed weapon.

- Jim

[03Lightningrocks]

I am always quick to post that a CHL is not a Batman license but that does not mean I am going to stand by and watch a person get beat senseless and do nothing about it. I would not have pulled my gun but I would have had no problem doing as the gentleman who was trying to separate them. The force I used would be commensurate with the force they used against me. They did not appear to be attacking the feller who was trying to intervene so it seems I would not have had to use any force. Those animals turn on me??? It is on!!! My CHL has nothing to do with the fact that I have never been the type of person to sit by and watch bodily harm come to others and do nothing about it. I believe I can intervene if need be without "picking sides".

[The Annoyed Man]

I just saw a story on the Drudge report (complete with video) where two women beat and almost killed another woman in a McDonalds. One guy halfheartedly attempted to break it up, but then left and the attack continued. Then I began to wonder what if I had been there at the time, what would I have done? Just curious what you guys think, and how far would you go, as a CHL holder if armed, or just as an unarmed bystander, how far would you go to break up something like this?

Any link to the report?

It's right there on the drudgereport front page. Jesus, they beat on her until she started having a seizure. That's one of the worst things I've ever watched. Those two subhuman apes who assaulted this girl need to spend the next 10 years behind bars..... but they won't..... That was pure unmitigated savagery, and there isn't anything the victim could have done that would have deserved that.

Video Here: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ec0_1303444048 (warning: VERY hard to watch).

[zero4o3]

Again it does not matter because what ever she may have done to provoke these females into beating her was mute as she was not even defending herself. she was no threat to the aggressors. Now this does not mean I would draw on them, but would put myself in a position to defend the girl from further beating, then if and when the need arose, draw if I have to.

Dont take what im saying as a "you shouldnt try to help at all" just in answer to your question

Does it really matter what it was about

Yes if your going to draw your gun, it matters what it was about.

[03Lightningrocks]

I just saw a story on the Drudge report (complete with video) where two women beat and almost killed another woman in a McDonald's. One guy halfheartedly attempted to break it up, but then left and the attack continued. Then I began to wonder what if I had been there at the time, what would I have done? Just curious what you guys think, and how far would you go, as a CHL holder if armed, or just as an unarmed bystander, how far would you go to break up something like this?

Any link to the report?

It's right there on the drudgereport front page. Jesus, they beat on her until she started having a seizure. That's one of the worst things I've ever watched. Those two subhuman apes who assaulted this girl need to spend the next 10 years behind bars..... but they won't..... That was pure unmitigated savagery, and there isn't anything the victim could have done that would have deserved that.

Video Here: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ec0_1303444048 (warning: VERY hard to watch).

It was hard to watch without getting angry. I watched two women get in a fight at my local Walgreens. They were an equal match...lol. Neither woman was taking a beating like that girl in Mickey D's and both were equal participants. Their kids were all cheering them on and screaming fight instructions at the women. It was quite the spectacle. The cops were on the way. No way I was going to get any of that action. I sat in my truck and watched for a minute before driving off. The cops were descending on the parking lot as I left. Different situations call for different responses and actions.

[PappaGun]

... Different situations call for different responses and actions.

Yeah, a fight at McD's requires a chocolate shake to watch, and a fight at Walgreen's requires some Bubble Yum.

As is my normal proclivity in these situations, I call 911.

I am not a LEO.

I do not want to attempt to be one guy with a gun trying to control two people in a crowd.

Mc Donald's will probably have security at future events.

[paadams]

It's a very tough call as you have no idea how anyone one else in the store will react in addition to the two attackers. I'm a white male and unfortunately in this day and age I have to consider the environment. There are several black males standing watching and one recording as two black females attacked a white female. If I intervene, whether drawing a gun or not, how will the others react. It could easily turn to a 4 or 5 against 1 scenario and I don't like those odds.

Now having said that...

If she was on her feet fighting back I would probably let it go, call 911. The moment she gets head stomped the situation is drastically different and someone needs to intervene as she is no longer able to defend herself. Even if she had provoked the attack, at that point I would like to think I would help. Even if it was a guy, anyone on the ground getting kicked and stomped on isn't a threat to anyone.

Even the spectators freaked out at the end when she started having seizures. I just hope I'm never put in that situation.

[Oldgringo]

...There are several black males standing watching and one recording as two black females attacked a white female. If I intervene, whether drawing a gun or not, how will the others react. It could easily turn to a 4 or 5 against 1 scenario and I don't like those odds....

Rascicm is very much alive in America...

Where are Jesse Jackson, et al, when you need them?

[Oldgringo]

What do you do after you produce a weapon and start issuing commands, and no one obeys you?

To put it bluntly, what do you think is going to happen when a white man in plain clothes pulls a gun in a crowd of angry and excited black people?

What are the friends or relatives of the combatants going to do?

Please don't call me a racist. This is a real situation that police officers often face. And the police have more legal authority behind them and can call for backup.

- Jim

EVERYONE should read and think long and hard about what Jim has written above. Very good advice.

ABSOLUTELY!

If two black women beat up on the white girl, how do you think their applauding audience is going to receive your honky heinie? Surely, you don't think yours is the only concealed gun in the joint, do you?

Secondly, what are you doing in this part of town anyway?

[WildBill]

Even the spectators freaked out at the end when she started having seizures. I just hope I'm never put in that situation.

The guy who was recording the beating sounded like he was trying to be a sports announcer narrating a boxing match. Disgusting.

Since I wasn't there, I don't know what I would have done, given the situation, but it looks like any semi-able man or normal-sized teenage boy could have stopped the attack without the benefit of a weapon.

Secondly, what are you doing in this part of town anyway?

I don't know what part of town she was in, but being it was a McDonald's I might have just been hungry and wanted a cheeseburger.