another beating at a McDonalds

[Rikk101]

I just saw a story on the Drudge report (complete with video) where two women beat and almost killed another woman in a McDonalds. One guy halfheartedly attempted to break it up, but then left and the attack continued. Then I began to wonder what if I had been there at the time, what would I have done? Just curious what you guys think, and how far would you go, as a CHL holder if armed, or just as an unarmed bystander, how far would you go to break up something like this?

[Keith B]

I just saw a story on the Drudge report (complete with video) where two women beat and almost killed another woman in a McDonalds. One guy halfheartedly attempted to break it up, but then left and the attack continued. Then I began to wonder what if I had been there at the time, what would I have done? Just curious what you guys think, and how far would you go, as a CHL holder if armed, or just as an unarmed bystander, how far would you go to break up something like this?

Any link to the report?

[A-R]

Call 911. Be a good witness. Only pull my weapon if there is a direct threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury to me or one of my friends/family.

I'm not likely to get involved in breaking up a fight between two unknown third parties - too much potential for blowback on me.

Caveat being if I KNOW more information than I assume you'd know in the given scenario and one "innocent" third party is in imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury by an aggressive third party. But it's difficult to truly KNOW enough information to determine who's who with enough certainty to use lethal force against one of them. Not saying it can't be done; just saying you'd better be CERTAIN of the facts of a third-party situation before you pull a gun and try to intervene.

Another good way to think about it is this .... would you intervene in the situation if you DID NOT have a gun? Does intervening with a holstered gun also put you at more risk (i.e. someone grabs your gun out of the holster during a scuffle)?

A lot to think about. The ramifications of making the wrong decision are life-altering for you AND the other unknown persons.

[PappaGun]

I don't see anything on Drudge

[Keith B]

I don't see anything on Drudge

The link is to LiveLeak and we don't allow those to be posted.

[seamusTX]

It sounds like this incident:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... tiona.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.wtam.com/cc-common/news/sect ... le=8457812" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Short version: In Cleveland, Ohio, Thursday, during a highly publicized hiring event at a McDonald's restaurant, two women got into a physical altercation. The stories are not very clear, but one got into a car and ran into a crowd, injuring four people. The woman was arrested later.

A witness said, "...they were fighting over drama, hood stuff."

The first link above contains some really shocking video of the event. Try telling me one man could have done anything to control that situation.

The basic ethical question is whether your actions are going to do more good than harm, and the good includes avoiding harm to yourself. Easy to ask, difficult to answer. (Just call me Yoda. )

I also have to say, I grew up in a place where racial tension was often close to the boiling point. A confrontation between people of different races could turn into a mob scene, and the party who was in the minority could be the object of conflicting and false accusations.

This particular location was probably ripe for this kind of emotional explosion, with hundreds of people applying for jobs.

- Jim

[pcgizzmo]

IF it were my wife "yes" without a doubt. If it were not my wife and they were kicking here or hitting her with an object or bashing her head against something "yes". If they were just slapping and scratching like most women fight then "no".

Let me also say that I would try and push or pull them off of her first but I would not hit them myself. If I thought I might have to strike them then I would draw before I did that.

[Kythas]

I probably would have drawn at the point where they were dragging her out of the restaurant by her hair. At that point, the two aggressors had left the building and returned three times to continue their assault.

This is evidence that a fight can result in serious injury or death. The victim was seen convulsing at the end of the video, likely due to head trauma from at least one time where I saw one of the aggressors stomping on her head.

[seamusTX]

What do you do after you produce a weapon and start issuing commands, and no one obeys you?

To put it bluntly, what do you think is going to happen when a white man in plain clothes pulls a gun in a crowd of angry and excited black people?

What are the friends or relatives of the combatants going to do?

Please don't call me a racist. This is a real situation that police officers often face. And the police have more legal authority behind them and can call for backup.

- Jim

[McKnife]

[youtube][/youtube]

NOTE: Video contains profanity

Typically, when a video is posted on liveleak, someone usually posts it separately on youtube with the exact same title for the sake of avoiding liveleak's nasty site.

And yes, I would have stood over the girl with hand on my gun handle (not drawn) and cell phone with 911 in the other hand. For those that think it's reckless, would you consider this video as "imminent serious bodily injury?" I would.

[suthdj]

I was raised to not strike a lady, however those were not ladies so they would be treated like a man.

[txflyer]

I disagree with those that would not have gotten involved. Had someone intervened right from the beginning the girl may not have ended up in a seizure.

Had I been there, I would have done what the first person did, help him to separate them and then slug the first one to come back. If they choose to escalate then so be it. I would respond appropriately.

As a human being I have a moral obligation to help those in need. This girl was in need from the beginning. My aid may have failed and I may get hurt, but that it something I must risk otherwise I won't sleep at night.

And IMHO, the people who sat by and did nothing are just as responsible for that girl's seizure as the two scumbags who beat the girl. The only person in the restaurant with any decent morals was the elderly woman who tried to stop it. The first guy doesn't count much as his attempt was only half-hearted.

[glbedd53]

Gotta be careful though. If you don't know what the fight was about or what led up to it and you use that gun, you're really leaving yourself hanging out.

[A-R]

Wow, that is a disturbing video. Hope those women are arrested and charged with attempted murder or worse.

After seeing the video, does change my initial stock answer a bit. But still not completely convinced that rushing into to "break it up" or pulling a gun in this situation is best solution.

Others tried to break it up, including what appears to be an older woman (in white warm up suit) and they even get into a brief shoving match with her. So this tells me two things: 1. these aggressive women did have capability to be aggressive toward others (not just the girl in blue top) but 2. they weren't so aggressive that they turned toward others with same lethal force as used on the target of their aggression (girl in blue top).

At some point, if cops or other help didn't arrive quickly, perhaps I would have pulled a gun and told them all to leave or I'd shoot. But before doing so you must decide:

1. will any of THEM pull a gun out of a purse and point/shoot at you? this is especially dangerous if you're holding one or two at gunpoint and a third is to your side just outside your field of view.

2. are there other spectators/hangers on who are WITH what appear to be three aggressive women committing the assault? how will THEY react if you pull a gun? Is there some gangbanger boyfriend waiting in the car outside who would see you pull a gun, then charge in with his own guns blazing?

3. if you're going to draw in this situation, do it from a position of strength and cover/concealment from not only the three or so assaultive women, but also from any associates who may enter the fray from other directions

All of the above is just my own thought processes. I have no formal training in such matters (big reason why I would still hesitate to intervene) other than random reading I've done.

Still say this type of situation should be approached with EXTREME caution, but after seeing just how vicious this beat down was I admit I'd have a hard time just "calling 911 and being a good witness" ... morals/ethics would push me very hard to intervene.

[A-R]

txflyer and glbedd53 .... two conflicting posts, but both VERY worthwhile for consideration .... this is not an easy black-n-white situation - a lot of gray area involved .... on some level I agree with both of you.