Another Airline (flying) observation...
Moderator: carlson1
OK, sorry for the delay.
I was coming back from the GA state IDPA match and went to the airport in Augusta. My works for CAL so we were pass riding and going through Houston (IAH) was a breeze.
I delcared my guns (2 Kimber Classic Customs), signed the tags, showed the ticket agent, etc... She stated she needed to take it over and have TSA x-ray (IIRC) and search the bag. I unlocked my bag and handed to them aross the velvet rope thing. He asked if I had keys to my lock box as he wanted to visually inspect my guns. :?
I gave him the keys and he opened the box and pulled both of my unloaded guns out and tryed to open the action. In the process of flagging everyone in a 360 degree circle with the muzzle, he realized that he had to do something besides pull back on the slide. He called over another guy and a female. He asked if they knew anything about "this type of gun." I was trying to tell them how to take the thumb safety off, but after trying to ignore me, he finally said, "Sir, you need to be quiet."
In the mean time the ticket agent had come over and was telling them it was unloaded and she had checked it and there was no need for them to physically pull the gun out of the lock box. They told her they needed to look at the gun themselves.
I told them if they gave me the gun I could clear it for them. I was told by the first guy, that I could not have my gun back, that would be a breach of security. I wanted to tell him if I was going to shoot someone in the airport, I would not have declared my unloaded and locked guns. I also wanted to know why I could not have my gun back. I was not in a secured area and I was able to carry my gun leagally in that part of the airport, as GA allowed out-of-state LEO's to carry. I told him, "Don't worry, I'm a cop, I'll show you how to do it." I showed him my badge and ID. He told me that he did not care if I was a cop, this was federal jurisdiction, and he didn't care, I wasn't going to touch my guns. :?
They finally called an older guy over who was a veteran of the military and he showed them the way to take off the thumb safety, and he walked off. The first guy checked both of them and then looked for a way to lower the hammer without pulling the trigger. Here we go again. He finally gave up and just left them cocked, like they were originally, but did not reactivate the thumb safety.
He locked everything up and processed my bag. He looked at me and asked, "Why would you want to have such a complicated gun?" I ignored him and walked off.
Not a comment on all TSA screeners, just one that had a problem. I can understand not painting a group of security/LE type people with the same brush. They jobs with silly rules/policies/etc...that we have to do.
As a side I had to chuckle there in MT when I asked the guy, "What is the reason that I can't have rounds in my mag?" He said, "No reason." Then quickly said in the same breath, "No reason has been given."
Glenn
I was coming back from the GA state IDPA match and went to the airport in Augusta. My works for CAL so we were pass riding and going through Houston (IAH) was a breeze.
I delcared my guns (2 Kimber Classic Customs), signed the tags, showed the ticket agent, etc... She stated she needed to take it over and have TSA x-ray (IIRC) and search the bag. I unlocked my bag and handed to them aross the velvet rope thing. He asked if I had keys to my lock box as he wanted to visually inspect my guns. :?
I gave him the keys and he opened the box and pulled both of my unloaded guns out and tryed to open the action. In the process of flagging everyone in a 360 degree circle with the muzzle, he realized that he had to do something besides pull back on the slide. He called over another guy and a female. He asked if they knew anything about "this type of gun." I was trying to tell them how to take the thumb safety off, but after trying to ignore me, he finally said, "Sir, you need to be quiet."
In the mean time the ticket agent had come over and was telling them it was unloaded and she had checked it and there was no need for them to physically pull the gun out of the lock box. They told her they needed to look at the gun themselves.
I told them if they gave me the gun I could clear it for them. I was told by the first guy, that I could not have my gun back, that would be a breach of security. I wanted to tell him if I was going to shoot someone in the airport, I would not have declared my unloaded and locked guns. I also wanted to know why I could not have my gun back. I was not in a secured area and I was able to carry my gun leagally in that part of the airport, as GA allowed out-of-state LEO's to carry. I told him, "Don't worry, I'm a cop, I'll show you how to do it." I showed him my badge and ID. He told me that he did not care if I was a cop, this was federal jurisdiction, and he didn't care, I wasn't going to touch my guns. :?
They finally called an older guy over who was a veteran of the military and he showed them the way to take off the thumb safety, and he walked off. The first guy checked both of them and then looked for a way to lower the hammer without pulling the trigger. Here we go again. He finally gave up and just left them cocked, like they were originally, but did not reactivate the thumb safety.
He locked everything up and processed my bag. He looked at me and asked, "Why would you want to have such a complicated gun?" I ignored him and walked off.
Not a comment on all TSA screeners, just one that had a problem. I can understand not painting a group of security/LE type people with the same brush. They jobs with silly rules/policies/etc...that we have to do.
As a side I had to chuckle there in MT when I asked the guy, "What is the reason that I can't have rounds in my mag?" He said, "No reason." Then quickly said in the same breath, "No reason has been given."
Glenn
Winners never quit, and quitters never win; but, if you never win, and never quit, you're a moron.
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Thanks for the story.
It sounds more like a training issue. I don't know if it is part of the training or not, but maybe some training on the basics of clearing some of the more common firearms (1911, glock, sig, beretta, etc.) is in order. They don't have to be a gun nut just know a few basics like not dropping the slide on a $3000 competition 1911. That would make someone happy.
It sounds more like a training issue. I don't know if it is part of the training or not, but maybe some training on the basics of clearing some of the more common firearms (1911, glock, sig, beretta, etc.) is in order. They don't have to be a gun nut just know a few basics like not dropping the slide on a $3000 competition 1911. That would make someone happy.
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Just Depends on The Individual
The only airports to handle my weapons were Houston Intercontinental and Los Angeles (LAX). The IAH guys also left my Kimber cocked and safety off. The LAX guys left them as they were - hammer down.
I have never understood why they think they have to handle the pistols.
I have never understood why they think they have to handle the pistols.
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
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'S'truth, and I have seen it happen at the airport where I work. TSA screeners are absolutely forbidden to handle firearms, no matter what their level of expertise. It's part of our Standard Operating Procedures.dws1117 wrote:According to jimlongley:
Sounds like the guns shouldn't have been handled.Handling a firearm, no matter what your competence level, is punishable by a three day suspension, FOR THE FIRST OFFENSE.
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Jim, I am glad to find that out. I really had no idea that they could not. I would not want to file a formal complaint in the future, but it would be worth pointing out to a supervisor. (informal...professional courtesy and all.)
Not that you mention it, the supervisor in MT would not let the TSA screener help me put my bullets back in the box.
Glenn
Not that you mention it, the supervisor in MT would not let the TSA screener help me put my bullets back in the box.
Glenn
Winners never quit, and quitters never win; but, if you never win, and never quit, you're a moron.
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When we were coming back from Thunder Ranch - Oregon, the TSA folks at the airport in Reno had a Reno PD officer come to check the guns. He was a great guy and even asked if he needed to wear gloves! I asked him if he was worried about destroying the fingerprints, but he just laughed and said "no, some people don't want us to handle their expensive guns." I told him not to worry about it, because they were still filthy from the last day at TR. He said, "good, they're supposed to be, if you got your money's worth." We then talked a good 5 or 6 minutes about guns, TR and flying with guns.jimlongley wrote:'S'truth, and I have seen it happen at the airport where I work. TSA screeners are absolutely forbidden to handle firearms, no matter what their level of expertise. It's part of our Standard Operating Procedures.
Regards,
Chas.
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BTW, one of the best screeners I ever worked with left Dallas a few months ago, and now works at Billings, his home town.
If it was truly at the beginning of the program the screener in question might have still been an employee of a private security firm, and some of those guys made up their own rules. The roll out of TSA was kind of slow for small airports and some were not converted until mid 2003.
Some of the private security types that we picked up, after they were laid off due to losing the airport contracts, have been very good, but more often than not they seem to be stuck in the old job. The best screeners, in my not so humble opinion (partly because I am a member of the subset) have tended to be the ex-engineers who understand the technology and used to have good careers which makes them motivated to do a good job and keep doing it.
One of TSA's problems, which I think I have stated before in different words, is that they tried to hit the ground fully functional, and they hired "experienced" managers and supervisors (usually ex-private security from the companies that were being displaced) and these people have been slow to appreciate the level of brain power operating beneath them.
If it was truly at the beginning of the program the screener in question might have still been an employee of a private security firm, and some of those guys made up their own rules. The roll out of TSA was kind of slow for small airports and some were not converted until mid 2003.
Some of the private security types that we picked up, after they were laid off due to losing the airport contracts, have been very good, but more often than not they seem to be stuck in the old job. The best screeners, in my not so humble opinion (partly because I am a member of the subset) have tended to be the ex-engineers who understand the technology and used to have good careers which makes them motivated to do a good job and keep doing it.
One of TSA's problems, which I think I have stated before in different words, is that they tried to hit the ground fully functional, and they hired "experienced" managers and supervisors (usually ex-private security from the companies that were being displaced) and these people have been slow to appreciate the level of brain power operating beneath them.
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Jim...jimlongley wrote:Now if you want to see an honest and critical assessment of TSA screening a gun, all you have to do is ask me.
Don't get me wrong...I was only razzing the procedures...Not the people...Its a job, and not everyone does it totally right...
For future reference, should those of us who do fly, and go through this procedure, should we just take it, and go on??? Or if we notice something that doesn't look right, ask you if its a violation of procedure (like handling the weapon) and file a formal complaint??? etc etc...
I'm not looking to cause waves...But if their are people in the system who need to be instructed further in procedures, then I see that as a positive...
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TSA
I too would like to know how to handle these situations. I do not like TSA fondling my weapon.
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh
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First of all, you wouldn't be on this site if you were not at least partly computer literate, so I would recommend that you go to TSAs web site and make copies of their own published rules and regs, and take them along the next time you travel.
http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?conte ... &print=yes
I would also recommend that you check into the CFR relating to traveling with firearms, that's the Code of Federal Regulations for those of you who are not Chas. 49 CFR 1544.203 relates to carriage of firearms by the airline, and 49 CFR 175.10
http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/docum ... index.html
http://www.toptonfga.org/Info/TSA_Advis ... rearms.htm
Unfortunately the SOPs are considered to be proprietary information so I can't quote them directly. Suffice it to say that screeners are NOT supposed to handle firearms.
http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?conte ... &print=yes
I would also recommend that you check into the CFR relating to traveling with firearms, that's the Code of Federal Regulations for those of you who are not Chas. 49 CFR 1544.203 relates to carriage of firearms by the airline, and 49 CFR 175.10
http://www.washingtonwatchdog.org/docum ... index.html
http://www.toptonfga.org/Info/TSA_Advis ... rearms.htm
Unfortunately the SOPs are considered to be proprietary information so I can't quote them directly. Suffice it to say that screeners are NOT supposed to handle firearms.
Real gun control, carrying 24/7/365