Why carry a .40 or.45

[MojoTexas]

Why carry a .40 or.45

Because they don't make a .46

Technically they do make "bigger" calibers (depending on how you define "bigger"), but they're mostly impractical for concealed carry unless your a masochist. An example is the Smith & Wesson Model 329PD, which is a revolver chambered in .44 Magnum and only weighs 25.5 ounces. Most of the reviews I've read all agree that it kicks like a mule!

In my opinion, .45 ACP, or possibly 10mm Auto (which is just a "magnum" version of .40S&W) is about as "big" as I'd want to go for concealed carry. Also note that if you travel to neighboring Oklahoma (like I did a few weeks ago), it's "illegal" to carry anything bigger than .45 caliber, although I don't know how they define "bigger". The .44 Magnum is a much more powerful (and longer, length-wise) round than the .45 ACP, but it is smaller in diameter. IANAL, but according to §21-1290.6 of Oklahoma statutes:

Any concealed handgun when carried in a manner authorized by the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Sections 1 through 25 of this act, when loaded with any ammunition which is either a restricted bullet as defined by Section 1289.19 of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes or is larger than .45 caliber or is otherwise prohibited by law shall be deemed a prohibited weapon for purposes of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act.

The subject of "best self-defense caliber" has been beat to death on this and many other public forums. Most experts agree that the #1 consideration is shot placement. A hit with a .380 is better than a miss with a .44 Magnum. If you can only have one handgun, you should carry the largest caliber with which you're comfortable shooting accurately. I have several handguns but when I'm carrying concealed, I mostly stick to either .38 Special (S&W J-Frame revolver--easy to conceal in summer) or my Kimber 1911 in .45 ACP.

Just my two cents worth, of course!

MojoTexas

[rm9792]

Why carry a .40 or.45

Because they don't make a .46

I beg to differ. 1911 platform in .460 Rowland and .50GI.

[USA1]

Why carry a .40 or.45

Because they don't make a .46

I beg to differ. 1911 platform in .460 Rowland and .50GI.

[.30calSolution]

The caliber and platform thing comes down to personal preference. What is most important is well placed shots.

Why carry a .40 or.45

Because they don't make a .46

Well, they do make a .46. I just don't own one.

[Excaliber]

My law enforcement contacts prefer 9mm - their experience in seeing people get shot with various calibers is that fewer people get up from 9mm than from 45.

Maybe due to shot placement - maybe luck - but I dont get shot at for a living, thank goodness and therefore I take the advice of my trusted friends who do. Rather than Internet conjecture

I suspect that observation may be due to the fact that folks shot with 9mm's often don't react right away, so the shooter keeps shooting. The terminal effect is more due to the number of leaking holes in the plumbing than the caliber of the round.

There are no magic bullets, and either caliber can get the job done if it is skillfully used. I put my eggs in the .45 basket because I think it offers a slight edge in some situations, but I wouldn't disparage anybody who chooses to cast his lot in with the 9.

[Excaliber]

The caliber and platform thing comes down to personal preference. What is most important is well placed shots.

Why carry a .40 or.45

Because they don't make a .46

Well, they do make a .46. I just don't own one.

The old saw needs to be updated to "Because they don't make a .55"

[Tamie]

The .50 AE has been around for more than 20 years so the comment has been obsolete at least that long, even if you ignore Howdah pistols.

[rm9792]

I assumed we only meant inthe 1911 platform. The 460 Rowland actually uses a 230g FMJ .45 bullet. At least that what my load data has.

[jester]

You should be pretty skilled with your handgun regardless of what it is, so carry whatever you can shoot well - but as the caliber decreases, the more highly-skilled (and lucky) you had better be.

That's especially true with the recent popularity of the LC pea shooters.

[baldeagle]

I have all 3 and 9mm is the one I wouldn't carry. To me 9mm is borderline and when you cut it down to a 3" barrel it's less than borderline.

That makes no sense at all.

The 9mm Luger has a higher velocity than the .45 acp from a 3 inch barrel and roughly the same muzzle energy as the .45. The only thing the .45 has over a 9mm from a 3 inch barrel is mass, and the 9mm makes up that difference with velocity. Which means that, from a 3 inch barrel, both should have about the same stopping power. The longer the barrel, the more the .45 shines. In fact, it isn't until you get to 5 inches that the .45 begins to separate itself from the 9mm, and very few concealed carry weapons have longer barrels than that. (For muzzle velocity, go to the linked pages above and click on the links to the muzzle energy graphs.) My Sig P226 has a 4.4 inch barrel. A Wilson Combat Carry 1911 has a 4.2 inch barrel. So the stopping power of both pistols would be about the same, if you base that on muzzle velocity.

Either pistol is about the largest that most people would use for concealed carry.

If you compare energy, expansion and penetration, the 9mm is at least the equal of the .45 acp from a scientific point of view in the size weapon that most people would carry. If you really want to start an argument, the .40 S&W is actually better than either the 9mm or the .45. It has about the same penetration as the 9mm (greater than the .45 acp), the same expansion as both the 9mm and the .45 acp, but higher energy than either of those loads. So theoretically, it should have the greatest stopping power of the three.

From my reading of the subject, the .45 vs 9mm arguments are based primarily on emotion and not scientific fact. The difference between the two, for most normal SD scenarios is the greater mass and therefore wound channel of the .45, but accuracy matters a great deal more than that. Either one is a perfectly acceptable SD weapon, and the .40 S&W may be a better choice than either of those. The best choice of all, if stopping power is all you care about, is the .357 Magnum, which puts all the others to shame in imparted energy and equals the others in expansion and penetration, while proving that bigger is not always better.

[lowonair]

I feel safe with 9mm. Right now i carry a .45 though.

[Vecco]

The 9mm Luger[/url] has a higher velocity than the .45 acp from a 3 inch barrel and roughly the same muzzle energy as the .45.

The only thing the .45 has over a 9mm from a 3 inch barrel is mass, and the 9mm makes up that difference with velocity.

How about this would you rather get hit in the chest with an 80mps baseball or a 30mps 400lb bolder. The velocity of the smaller and lighter (less mass) baseball will not make up for the larger and heaver (more mass) 400lb bolder. Both can kill you, but one will have a better chance of stopping you then the other and is more lethal.

[Vecco]

The Hatcher Formula is an attempt to mathematically evaluate the approximate effectiveness of pistol ammunition at incapacitating a person. Developed by Gen. Julian Hatcher in the 1930's, it uses the bullet momentum, frontal area, velocity, and a 'form factor.'
The formula is:
RSP = M * A * F
where RSP = Relative Stopping Power Index, M = Momentum of the bullet in foot pounds, A = Area of the bullet in square inches, F = Form factor derived from his observations with some additions for later bullet types.

Hatcher Formula
Used to decide stopping power of a pistol in SD, the best stopping power is 50 with anything going over 55 having diminishing return and more recoil

45 = 60.7
40 = 59.4
10 = 62.1
9 = 39.9
380= 18.3

Mass x Velocity = momentum

Momentum = penetration depth.


Quick list of bullet stopping power based on the formula

http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/hatcher-table.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[baldeagle]

The 9mm Luger[/url] has a higher velocity than the .45 acp from a 3 inch barrel and roughly the same muzzle energy as the .45.

The only thing the .45 has over a 9mm from a 3 inch barrel is mass, and the 9mm makes up that difference with velocity.

How about this would you rather get hit in the chest with an 80mps baseball or a 30mps 400lb bolder. The velocity of the smaller and lighter (less mass) baseball will not make up for the larger and heaver (more mass) 400lb bolder. Both can kill you, but one will have a better chance of stopping you then the other and is more lethal.

Your comparison is a little off. It would be more accurate to say would you rather get hit in the chest with an 80 mps baseball or a 50mps softball that was just as hard as the baseball. That's a more accurate depiction of the differences in mass and speed. And I would think both would have about the same effect. (Remember, we're talking about a 3 inch barrel. Longer lengths differentiate the two.)

[Excaliber]

The Hatcher Formula is an attempt to mathematically evaluate the approximate effectiveness of pistol ammunition at incapacitating a person. Developed by Gen. Julian Hatcher in the 1930's, it uses the bullet momentum, frontal area, velocity, and a 'form factor.'
The formula is:
RSP = M * A * F
where RSP = Relative Stopping Power Index, M = Momentum of the bullet in foot pounds, A = Area of the bullet in square inches, F = Form factor derived from his observations with some additions for later bullet types.

Hatcher Formula
Used to decide stopping power of a pistol in SD, the best stopping power is 50 with anything going over 55 having diminishing return and more recoil

45 = 60.7
40 = 59.4
10 = 62.1
9 = 39.9
380= 18.3

Mass x Velocity = momentum

Momentum = penetration depth.


Quick list of bullet stopping power based on the formula

http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/hatcher-table.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Hatcher formula was a considerable achievement for its day. Those who carry rounds other than the 9mm and .45 may be interested in seeing where those rounds fall on the Hatcher scale. However, that piece of research was far from the last word.

There are many more variables in a real life shooting situation than are accounted for in the formula, and mass and velocity do not address them all. For example, modern hollow point ammunition was not available at that time and ballistic gelatin for accurately gauging relative penetration in a standard medium had not been developed. The formula also does not take into account performance with intervening materials (e.g., glass, light clothing, heavy clothing, leather, wallboard, etc.).

A much more comprehensive look at how all these factors come together in the real world can be found in the FBI's wound ballistics test report prepared in 1989 by SSA John Hall (who I knew personally through my time at the FBI Academy). For those who are seriously interested in gaining detailed knowledge of the issues, the full report can be found here.

The information on specific cartridges is now out of date because there have been major advances in bullet construction since that time, but the test protocols and performance standards are still in use by many law enforcement agencies who are trying to make sure they select, buy, and issue only the best of the best today.

Wound ballistics research is ongoing, and major new information still emerges periodically and past ratings constantly require revision due to advances in ammunition construction. Here's my take on the current state of affairs as they apply to self defense:

1. There is still no magic bullet, and I'm not holding my breath for seeing one in my lifetime

2. Within the same caliber, bullet placement is more important than bullet construction.

3. Any gun is better than no gun if those are your only options, with the caveat that little low energy rounds make little holes. While these wounds may eventually be disabling or even fatal, those effects often occur long after they're of any benefit to the defender. This means that a well placed .22 cannot be relied upon to stop an imminent threat as relaibly as a similarly well placed .45 in a short enough time frame to meet your needs, and that .45 is nowhere close to 100% either.

4. If faced with the options of flinging tiny projectiles from a small caliber handgun or a brick in an arms length life threatening encounter, the real life fact is that in many cases you'd be better served by the brick.