Homeowner kills 1, critically wounds another

[ghentry]

gigag... did you read the other article?

Around 1am, Lerma returned home with his brother and a friend to find four men in his front yard.

"I guess they panicked," he said. "One of them ran this way. He got stuck right there. We caught him. The other ones ran to the back. I grabbed my gun and shot him."

Three of the suspects ran through his back yard as Lerma retrieved a nine millimeter pistol from inside his home. He emptied his clip of 16 rounds, hitting two of the burglars. One of them died.

IF these facts are correct, and IF the suspects were running away, and IF he ran inside to get his gun, came back out and shot a guy they had cornered, I'm guessing he may be charged. However, we obviously don't have the entire story, sequence of events, etc. to make a proper judgement on what may happen.

On a side note: It's a shame you weren't able to make the legal seminar that Charles hosted last Saturday. We discussed the penal code you are referring to.

[gigag04]

It's a shame you weren't able to make the legal seminar that Charles hosted last Saturday. We discussed the penal code you are referring to.

I know! I was all ready to go and jump in the truck, but we had friends come in at midnight the night before (I was at home for the weekend), so I felt it best to stay, even though they came last minute.

Hopefully we can have another get together like that, or even just a hang out time, go shoot or something.


I guess my confusion with this discussion is stemming from the fact that all the things I read about this say that there WAS an immenint burglary, and the fact the the BGs shot back is another nice fact that will work well for this to be proven as a clean shoot.

I am not "intentionally misleading" as was suggested, since it's not my desire to mislead anyone by what I quoted (simple enough). I was following what I thought was the thread of the conversation - but maybe I missed something.

I think we got mixed up when I've been at this discussion from a mindset of "the BGs were breaking and entering" thus making it a clean shoot, whereas you've been discussing from a mindset of "they were just standing there." Papers said both, so niether of us really know.

Does any of this make sense?

[stevie_d_64]

[quote="gigag04]Does any of this make sense?[/quote]

No...

When our original sources for the incident are the Houston Chronicle, and local TV affiliates 20-30 second assumptions...

But our discussion on this forum I would say have been more substantive than anything broadcast or put into print, regardless of the content...

[txinvestigator]

A bad guy entering your home, in an of itself, is not always justification for using deadly force.

Everyone reads the part about "to prevent the immenint commission of a burglary", but many don't notice or pay attnetion to the words "WHEN AND TO THE DEGREE he REASONABLY BELIEVES it is IMMEDIATELY NECESSARY'

As a former LEO, current firearms instructor and trained some in self-defense and tactics, what might not be reasonable for ME, may be reasonable for someone else.

I have to get to work, but tonight I will post an example where I would not be justified in using DF, but a man in Dallas was; the evidence is the fact a Grand Jury no-billed him.

[stevie_d_64]

Everyone reads the part about "to prevent the immenint commission of a burglary", but many don't notice or pay attnetion to the words "WHEN AND TO THE DEGREE he REASONABLY BELIEVES it is IMMEDIATELY NECESSARY'

This comment you made, was the best lesson "explained" to me, at this last weekends seminar...

We all have a good recollection of the laws applicable to this issue...But, I for one will admit I never expect to be an expert to the reasoning behind them...

You will always have something to learn...

I look forward to seeing your examples of shoot, no-shoot senarios tonight...

[Paladin]

A bad guy entering your home, in an of itself, is not always justification for using deadly force.

I'll say that a bad guy breaking into my home with me or my family home would certainly put me in fear. If they just wanted to steal my stuff they'd most likely do it when no one was home.

Even if the badguy's think that nobodies home, who knows how they would react to finding somebody home? Who knows what they might do? If they run without a fight, well probably they're not a threat. Otherwise I would consider them a threat to my life and the life of my family.

[stevie_d_64]

I also guess that since hindsight is 20/20, that fact that these "victims" (the burglers) were armed, and returned fire...

Still doesn't seem to make a larger impact, on the community at large... :?

If it were me, at that point of recieving incoming fire, all bets are off...Its my home, my stuff, my family and our lives...

Now don't get me wrong...I feel confident enough to govern my actions and will ramp up the appropriate level of force I feel I need, given the information I have, on the situation to handle it, short of discharging my weapon...Thats first and foremost...

If that level of force is usurped or surpassed (by the BG's), then things will change...

I hope "txinvestigator's" (shoot, no shoot) information somewhat parallels my mindset...

[txinvestigator]

A bad guy entering your home, in an of itself, is not always justification for using deadly force.

I'll say that a bad guy breaking into my home with me or my family home would certainly put me in fear. If they just wanted to steal my stuff they'd most likely do it when no one was home.

Even if the badguy's think that nobodies home, who knows how they would react to finding somebody home? Who knows what they might do? If they run without a fight, well probably they're not a threat. Otherwise I would consider them a threat to my life and the life of my family.

NO where in the use of force laws are you given justification "if you are in fear". What you have to ask is, is it reasonable to believe that deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent the others use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force.

If a BG is JUST breaking into your home, is he using or attempting to use DF? NOPE.

Is he in the imminent commission of Aggravated Robbery, kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery?

I don't know. do you know what the elements of Agg Robbery are? In the scenario, as you see it in your mind, is the BG doing something that would meet the definition of Agg Robbery?

If yes, then is it reasonable for you to believe that it is immediately necessary to use deadly force to prevent the imminent commission of that Agg robbery?

Is the person in the imminent commission of arson,
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or
criminal mischief during the nighttime?

If so, is it reasonable for you to believe that it is immediately necessary to use deadly force to prevent the imminent commission of that crime. Oh yeah, do you know the elements of the crime?



See what I mean??

For the example I mentioned earlier. If a teenager is stealing the wheels from you car at 2:00 am, thats Theft during the nighttime, right?

So you could just blast them, right?

EDIT: please pardon the spelling errors..................LONG day. ;)

[one eyed fatman]

Sorry guy's but I have to say this again. Law's are not made for us to understand, law's are made for people (and their lawyers) to go to court and argue about. Until then your on your own. By the way, the perp's win if your more afraid of the law then you are them.

[gigag04]

See what I mean??

For the example I mentioned earlier. If a teenager is stealing the wheels from you car at 2:00 am, thats Theft during the nighttime, right?

So you could just blast them, right?

Yeah good points!

Luckily - I seem to have gotten a great CHL class (thank you champion firearms), and we had a very in depth discussion on use of force/DF scenarios.

Another point that our instructor brought up was homestead issues, where you can shoot anyone inside your house, technically, but he also emphasized that in practice use your stinking head. He gave this example:

If I come into my house and see three 8 yr old kids, and tell them to leave and they don't, could I shoot....Yes. Would I......heck no...I would leave my house and call 911.

Same thing w/ the water hose, would I blast someone for burning off with my yard tools, not likely, though "justifiable" it's too much headache for a $20 piece of equipment.

I think this is the ideaology where most of us would line up??

[Paladin]

txinvestigator,

You said you have law enforcement experience?

That surprises me.

being in fear for your life doesn't matter? Maybe you should have made the seminar.

I have studied hundreds, if not thousands of self defense cases. You think the badguys are going to tell you why they are doing what they're doing? You think the badguys are going to tell you they're going to rape or murder while you still have a chance at doing something about it?

[Paladin]

For the example I mentioned earlier. If a teenager is stealing the wheels from you car at 2:00 am, thats Theft during the nighttime, right?

So you could just blast them, right?

We talked about just that at the seminar. While it's not at all advisable to do so, because it would be a harsh thing to do and a jury would likely be unsymathetic, you are quoting Texas law. I certainly wouldn't shoot somebody for stealing my hubcaps.

I can quote to you examples of Theft during the nighttime and malicous mischief during the nightime where people were legally killed in Texas.

[Paladin]

Is he in the imminent commission of Aggravated Robbery, kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery?

I don't know. do you know what the elements of Agg Robbery are? In the scenario, as you see it in your mind, is the BG doing something that would meet the definition of Agg Robbery?

Actually I know a number of people who were victims of aggravated robbery, aggravated kidnapping, and capital murder.

I've personally witnessed a murder trial and a capital murder trial. Have you?

I've personally witnessed 6 victims of aggravated robbery (2 of whom were shot) testify in court.

You think I might be a bit familure with it?

[txinvestigator]

txinvestigator,

You said you have law enforcement experience?

That surprises me.

being in fear for your life doesn't matter? Maybe you should have made the seminar.

I have studied hundreds, if not thousands of self defense cases. You think the badguys are going to tell you why they are doing what they're doing? You think the badguys are going to tell you they're going to rape or murder while you still have a chance at doing something about it?

Show me the law that allows use of deadly force if you are "afraid for you life".

Quite simple

[txinvestigator]

[
Another point that our instructor brought up was homestead issues, where you can shoot anyone inside your house, technically,

WHAT? Show me THAT law.

If I come into my house and see three 8 yr old kids, and tell them to leave and they don't, could I shoot....Yes.

Again, show me the law.

DF is not justifed in response to trespassing.

Same thing w/ the water hose, would I blast someone for burning off with my yard tools, not likely, though "justifiable" it's too much headache for a $20 piece of equipment.[/quote] DF is justified if you REASONABLY BELIEVE it was IMMEDIATELY NECESSARY to prevent the IMMINENT COMMISSION of theft during the nighttime.