finally had to draw

[cougartex]

Glad all are ok.

[edmart001]

First I'm glad nobody was hurt or robbed. Second, I don't really believe anyone knows exactly what they will do in a given situation until they face that situation - that's why soldiers and cops train so much and in so many different scenarios. Third, Monday morning quarterbacking is always easier than actually being there.

Having said all of that, I don't think I would have drawn that night based on my understanding of the information given in the OP. I would have probably challenged them and been ready to draw, but not actually drawn - like was said in a previous post, if I draw, I intend to fire so I'm pretty sure the pistol is going to be smoking a second or so after clearing leather.

In a similar situation about two months ago my wife and I were approached late at night on a deserted downtown street. The guy started walking our way from across the street and shouting that he wanted to ask us a question. I turned and faced the guy, put my left hand up in a "stop" signal and told him loudly, "We don't want to talk to you, do not come any closer" while clearing my coats, lifting my shirt and placing my right hand on the grip of my holstered pistol. I was wearing a sport coat and an overcoat so I'm sure that although I never presented the pistol and he never actually saw it, the big motions I made to clear both coats and my shirt made it fairly obvious that I was at least pretending to be armed and preparing to draw. I saw his eyes widen and he changed directions quickly back to his side of the street and walked away at a very quick pace - never saying another word to us. We were about a block from our hotel, which is where we were going anyway, so we continued on our way. My plan, had he continued in our direction, was that when he got to the middle of the street (about 12-15 yards away) I was going to shout, "If you come any closer I will consider it a threat and defend myself." And if he kept coming I would have immediately seen whether or not all those sessions at the range were worth it.

Anyway, I'm not trying to criticize what you did, I'm simply presenting what I did in another situation that may have had some similarities and to say that in general, for me, I don't want to point my pistol at anyone unless I've already decided that my life (or that of my wife) was in danger and my use of lethal force is warranted.

[SpringerFan]

Glad to hear everything worked out OK.

[Kevinf2349]

I agree with you, I would have had my hand on the gun in my pocket but would not had drawn it at the mere sight of two people approaching in my direction. I wouldn't pull my weapon unless I plan on using it.

but they ignored his questions about what they wanted and they deliberately made a "bee line" for him. This was hardly the "mere sight". It is easy to MMQB any situation, and I guess as everything turned out OK then "no harm, no foul" but what idiot makes a beeline for someone, in the dark, in Texas, ignoring any warnings, without worrying about the chances of ending up dead?

[sawdust]

Good outcome, in all respects.

"Nothing good happens after (insert your own time) PM/AM."

[jtran987]

i myself wasnt exactly sure if it was the right thing to do, all i know is that in the end it worked legally and personally and thats all i care about

but what idiot makes a beeline for someone, in the dark, in Texas, ignoring any warnings, without worrying about the chances of ending up dead?

also thanks for everyones reply

[Fangs]

Stealing this quote from the "Almost robbed in Wal-Mart" thread:

If I am approached and I tell the guy to stop where he is and he continues to approach he is threatening force (intimidation is force).

Idk about you guys, but having two dudes hanging out in the dark until they see me and my girlfriend walk up and only then beelining it straight for us while ignoring everything I say... I could definitely see that as intimidating. Unless my gf's a ninja, then I'm outnumbered, it's dark and I probably can't discern very easily if they're holding / hiding any weapons, and anyone who isn't up to no good wouldn't be acting this way. Now I'm not 100% sure that intimidation counts as force (though I would like to believe Dragonfighter on this), I am however 100% sure that I don't want to risk my safety or the safety of the ones I care about because I'm too slow to call a threat a threat.

If I had been in this situation, I would have had my hand on my pocket gun while changing direction. If they followed my then I would gladly have pulled and shot if the display of deadly force didn't deter them. I see this as just another way of legally covering my 6, if I can show that they were unresponsive to commands and were following me.

Glad you got a LEO who respects CHL's.

[fickman]

Since it was dark, you could have accomplished the same thing with a laser pointer in your free hand (and had your other read to draw)!

Glad everything worked out!

[blackdog8200]

I think the big lesson here was to call the police and file the report first,as in before the bad guys did.

Instincts are best followed and the no response to a challenge seems like pretty good indication of
Sec. 9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;


Maybe the presentation of a flashlight with a hand on your weapon might be a MMQB better solution....but the laser had the same effect. At 10 yards they were definitely in the "danger close" range.

Glad everyone was safe. I'll bet your heart rate was up a bit as well?

As my mother would ask: "What have we learned from this?" I aske the same of my "children" 18 and 21, everyday.

[A-R]

jtran987, again thank you for sharing this story with us. I too am very happy this turned out well for you and your girlfriend in terms of your safety/security and any legal ramifications. Please understand any questioning of your choices/tactics truly is just Monday morning quarterbacking and is an attempt to learn with everyone else following this thread. Please know that your "goodness" (for lack of a better term) is not being questioned, only the choices you made are being dissected so that everyone may benefit from your experience.



With that said, I still think you were a bit quick to pull the gun based on the information you've provided. There are two additional steps I feel you could have taken before the "threat" was real enough to warrant pulling your firearm (both have been mentioned previously either here or in other threads):

1. Hold out your off hand, palm toward the men in the classic "stop" motion and say very loudly and assertively "STOP! Do not come any closer." If the men continue walking toward you at this point, then I believe you've exhausted all possible de-escalation possibilities and pulling your weapon is justified, IMHO. In your OP you stated that you asked "very loudly what they needed" and they ignored you and kept approaching. This is close, but still not the same to me as an assertive vocal "STOP!" and hand motion.

AND/OR

2. Go a different direction away from your car (back toward the restaurant, down another street (as long as it's at least as well lit as current street) and see if the men continue to follow. Again, not seeing this first-hand it's difficult to know if there was time to take an evasive manuveur such as this. But it should be attempted if possible. If these men just happened to decide to head in your opposite direction with no ill intent, then they will walk past and situation is over. If they intend harm, then they will likely follow you.

It cannot be overstated that the above is strictly "best practices" and tactics that can be used if the situation is right. I was not there so don't know if these tactics would have been best in your particular situation. Just food for thought. In my mind, based on what you've told us, even if the cops gave you a hard time and/or arrested you, if I was on a jury I would not have convicted you of aggravated assault in this case. My only reason for repeating some of these suggestions is that the goal is to avoid the ride AND the rap.

Again, very happy this turned out well for you and VERY pleased you were carrying and able to defend yourself.

[Dragonfighter]

1. Hold out your off hand, palm toward the men in the classic "stop" motion and say very loudly and assertively "STOP! Do not come any closer." If the men continue walking toward you at this point, then I believe you've exhausted all possible de-escalation possibilities and pulling your weapon is justified, IMHO. In your OP you stated that you asked "very loudly what they needed" and they ignored you and kept approaching. This is close, but still not the same to me as an assertive vocal "STOP!" and hand motion.

The mere loud "What do you need?" without open gesturing "should" be adequate warning they have been made and you have alerted me. That said, from a MMQB position and from a potential witness POV should the unthinkable happen, the above verbiage is more appropriate. I my self have used "That's close enough! How can I help you?" with hand near the weapon and have turned more than one away and gotten a more submissive request for assistance in one case. All had started approaching with an aggressive posture.

2. Go a different direction away from your car (back toward the restaurant, down another street (as long as it's at least as well lit as current street) and see if the men continue to follow. Again, not seeing this first-hand it's difficult to know if there was time to take an evasive manuveur such as this. But it should be attempted if possible. If these men just happened to decide to head in your opposite direction with no ill intent, then they will walk past and situation is over. If they intend harm, then they will likely follow you.

This definitely would've vetted their intentions but I see a couple of tactical problems, one turning your back on them to leave and two you eventually have to return to your car, are they still there? Are they positioned closer to where they think your car is since you left? And I agree, from the limited information, its hard to tell the efficacy of such maneuvering.

jtran987,

IMHO, you did well. Now that the stress is gone you may find details in your heart of hearts that bear improving if there is a next time. I don't know, you were there and we weren't. My "feeling" is you had a very tangible threat and it was removed without violence of action. Obviously the cops didn't have a problem so in this case they felt you used "just enough" force and were justified. If there had been a problem I doubt, given the "reasonableness" standard of the laws in question and the justifications, it would be too difficult to defend in court.

Good job and thank God you all are okay.

Edited because I am too dumb to spell "all" correctly...and finish sentences

[gigag04]

I think blowing them out with a flashlight is a reasonable first move. Just keep your head swinging so you see your sides and rear too. Thats what my response is when I'm on a scene and I see someone approaching (at night). I blind the heck out of them with either my SL-20 (big flashlight) or my Strion LED (small, painfully bright). I also keep a TLR-1 on my duty weapon just for surprises.

This solves the issue of not seeing their hands and communicates to that individual that you are perceiving their actions as a POSSIBLE threat. Even to someone with a hearing impairment or a mental handicap (many of the homeless fall in this category) would realize something is going on when they are lit up with a light.

I can't say that I carry a light everywhere I go, but I also have some other defenses than just a gun (not afraid to go hands on, instinctual hand checking, verbal commands come naturally etc). I am in the process of having a holster made that will accommodate a G30sf plus my TLR-3. This will help.


As far as OP's incident I think you are VERY lucky the LEO didn't take any action. Because I'm newer, I would've had to check with the higher ups and it would be at their mercy as to whether write it up as an incident (most likely) or as an offense report. I don't fault the OP for doing SOMETHING...he did not get stuck in the OODA loop, and chose to act, and did so decisively - fixing the issue. I also feel that some more training may be in order to have a bit better plan when stress piles on, you're feeling threatened, and want to act - the gun presentation was probably premature -- however, at least you did something. Freezing in that situation is not an option.

Maybe we can all learn from this (self included).

[paadams]

This thread has really got me thinking.

How far away do you let them get before you draw. I have heard several times that from 21 feet away someone can stab you before you can draw and fire.

If you allow them to approach closer than 7-10 yards, it seems to me you are putting yourself in a situation where it could go hand to hand. I'm getting more comfortable with that since I started taking jiu jitsu, however against multiple assailants it can present a problem.

I understand why some think the OP drew to early and wouldn't disagree as it can make you appear to be the aggressor, especially if there are other witnesses who call the police before you do, or the "attackers" are unarmed, etc...

Saying "stop" forcefully but allowing them to get within 20 feet seems like it could end badly as they can get to you before you draw and can engage. At what distance do you draw the line and act?

[Cosmo 9]

I was going to do what I usually do and just stay quiet but....

1. This is a public sidewalk about 7' wide anyone going in the opposite direction is coming right at you.
2. If you hold your hand out towards me in the classic stop sign and tell me to stop it's going to get you laughed at.
3. They have no obligation to answer your questions. They had the same right to be there as you did.
4. They didn't verbally threaten you or make any demands of you.

I'm not saying that they had no malicious intent, I'm just saying from what I read I would have needed a little more info.

[A-R]

I was going to do what I usually do and just stay quiet but....

1. This is a public sidewalk about 7' wide anyone going in the opposite direction is coming right at you.
2. If you hold your hand out towards me in the classic stop sign and tell me to stop it's going to get you laughed at.
3. They have no obligation to answer your questions. They had the same right to be there as you did.
4. They didn't verbally threaten you or make any demands of you.

I'm not saying that they had no malicious intent, I'm just saying from what I read I would have needed a little more info.

Even to someone with a hearing impairment or a mental handicap (many of the homeless fall in this category) would realize something is going on when they are lit up with a light.

Some very good points to consider here. Just because these people seemed menacing to you, doesn't necessarily mean they ARE menacing or that they believe/realize they are menacing. Which again leads me to believe pulling the gun was premature. My gut tells me they WERE up to no good, and your instinct obviously told you the same thing. This just falls smack into that little grey area and there is a lot of room for "reasonable doubt". A lot of good alternative suggestions have been offered. Again, if I was on the jury I would not have convicted you of any crime for your actions as described here. But I still think there are better alternatives and this is a great learning experience. The OP did well, next time he'll be able to do even better.

As for #2 above in Cosmo's post, I couldn't care less is someone laughs at me. If they laugh, I will likely be able to better gauge their intentions while only I will know how close they came to the muzzle of my handgun pointed in their general direction. They can go to the bar and laugh all they want at the "freak" who put his hand up and told them to "STOP!" like a crossing guard or something. I'll go home safe and sound in the knowledge that I de-escalated a situation and no one got hurt.

There is not room on your person to carry both your gun and your ego. Take the gun, but leave the ego at home. If the worst thing that happens to you is a bruised ego, then you have WON the encounter. Go home and be happy at the non-violent outcome.