Well.... Color Me Stupid
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Well.... Color Me Stupid
I got stupid yesterday. Actually, I may have been stupid for a long, long time. Yesterday just provided more evidence.
But first, a little background.
I consider myself an analytical troubleshooter. No pun intended.
I also consider myself somewhat aware of the psychological/neurological condition of the human mind/brain.
I was lurking on this site for a few months before I enlisted. This coincided with the decision to get my CHL and to acquire a pistol. In monitoring the various postings, I took notice of two things: 1) When things happen, they happen fast, 2) in stressful situations, cognitive functions become limited, and 3)many members speak of the many and various handgun models and brands that they carry or have at hand. As a pilot, I am well aware of 1) and 2).
Each handgun has a myriad of differing options - safety/no safety, safety down/safety up, yes/no to magazine interlock, DAO/SA-DA, left/right-hand oriented controls, etc. You get the picture. While I am fully aware of the adaptability of the human brain, in having so many handguns, I questioned the wisdom of always having to figure out which handgun, with all of the possible combinations of differences, one was carrying. Given 1), 2), and 3) above, it seems that additional difficulties are created at the very moment of greatest need.
I'm not sure exactly why it happened, but I did wind up owning 2 pistols. Same brand, same design. The one difference was that one came with a higher-capacity 17-round magazine, and the other pistol was a smaller version, with a 13-round capacity.
Finally , I'm getting to the story. I was at the range yesterday, with the smaller pistol. In getting set up, I inserted (with vigor) the magazine into the pistol. It jammed about about 3/4 of the way in. From that point, I couldn't push it in any farther, nor could I extract it, even with considerable force applied. I was able to rack the slide to empty the magazine and called an instructor over. He looked at it, pushed and pulled, and all of a sudden the magazine fell out. "What'd you do?", I wanted to know. "I pushed the magazine release button," he replied.
Duh. I had inserted the longer, high-capacity magazine. Since I didn't know that I even had it with me, it never occurred to me to think along those lines. The magazine had "jammed" and that was my focus. In a tight situation, with the aspects of 1), 2), and 3) in effect, I would have been many steps behind.
For me at least, I have once more established what I have long known to be true: In a time of stress of any kind, initially there is only reaction, and when the steps of a process happen as anticipated (hoped for), all is well. However, in the type of situations that are normally discussed here, it seems that any hesitation or hiccup - anything that takes your attention away from the normal process - can be immediately dangerous.
So, I ask those of you with the multiple pistols and their differing designs, "How do/would you truly counter those effects?"
But first, a little background.
I consider myself an analytical troubleshooter. No pun intended.
I also consider myself somewhat aware of the psychological/neurological condition of the human mind/brain.
I was lurking on this site for a few months before I enlisted. This coincided with the decision to get my CHL and to acquire a pistol. In monitoring the various postings, I took notice of two things: 1) When things happen, they happen fast, 2) in stressful situations, cognitive functions become limited, and 3)many members speak of the many and various handgun models and brands that they carry or have at hand. As a pilot, I am well aware of 1) and 2).
Each handgun has a myriad of differing options - safety/no safety, safety down/safety up, yes/no to magazine interlock, DAO/SA-DA, left/right-hand oriented controls, etc. You get the picture. While I am fully aware of the adaptability of the human brain, in having so many handguns, I questioned the wisdom of always having to figure out which handgun, with all of the possible combinations of differences, one was carrying. Given 1), 2), and 3) above, it seems that additional difficulties are created at the very moment of greatest need.
I'm not sure exactly why it happened, but I did wind up owning 2 pistols. Same brand, same design. The one difference was that one came with a higher-capacity 17-round magazine, and the other pistol was a smaller version, with a 13-round capacity.
Finally , I'm getting to the story. I was at the range yesterday, with the smaller pistol. In getting set up, I inserted (with vigor) the magazine into the pistol. It jammed about about 3/4 of the way in. From that point, I couldn't push it in any farther, nor could I extract it, even with considerable force applied. I was able to rack the slide to empty the magazine and called an instructor over. He looked at it, pushed and pulled, and all of a sudden the magazine fell out. "What'd you do?", I wanted to know. "I pushed the magazine release button," he replied.
Duh. I had inserted the longer, high-capacity magazine. Since I didn't know that I even had it with me, it never occurred to me to think along those lines. The magazine had "jammed" and that was my focus. In a tight situation, with the aspects of 1), 2), and 3) in effect, I would have been many steps behind.
For me at least, I have once more established what I have long known to be true: In a time of stress of any kind, initially there is only reaction, and when the steps of a process happen as anticipated (hoped for), all is well. However, in the type of situations that are normally discussed here, it seems that any hesitation or hiccup - anything that takes your attention away from the normal process - can be immediately dangerous.
So, I ask those of you with the multiple pistols and their differing designs, "How do/would you truly counter those effects?"
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
Sawdust - You have asked a very good question. The most general piece of advice I can offer is to be consistant with each type of handgun.sawdust wrote:So, I ask those of you with the multiple pistols and their differing designs, "How do/would you truly counter those effects?"
For example, always keep one "in the pipe" so you don't have to remember to rack the slide. If you carry DAO automatics with a safety, always keep the safety off. That way you don't have to remember if the safety is on or off and which way to move the lever. Always keep your spare magazine in the same place and pointed in the same direction.
Last edited by WildBill on Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
I have multiple pistols (arsenal, cache, etc in lib speak) but I only carry 1911's. You need to just practice and get used to your pistols. Without knowing what you have I cant speak to whether or not the longer mag will work but if it locked in it might. If the longer mag works then only carry long mags as spares. I carry only fullsize mags as spares for my 1911 even though I carry both a fullsize and a 3" 1911. The longer fullsize mags work in the compacts, they just stick out. If I need another mag inserted then that little bit sticking out is the least of my worries. Dont feel stupid, everyone has to learn sometime. Learning multiple manual of arms is not a wise idea IMO as you dont need to try to remember what you have as it is being drawn. For example, flipping a Beretta 92 up is for fire but will lock a 1911, not good in a defensive situation.
Last edited by rm9792 on Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
Okay, wait, give me a second to quit snickering. Whew.
I doubt anyone here with experience exceeding the nominal has not made equally embarrassing, if not more treacherous errors. When my wife met me she called me the absent minded professor. Organization was not my strong suit but I had been trained by my uncle and the army to a point where (even under rapid fire drills) it is second nature for me to check the mag and that rounds are seated before loading.
Well, a few years ago I had my 1911 at the range and when the slide locked back I dropped the mag, was talking to a friend and reloaded. Dropped the slide, took careful aim and "CLICK"! I re-cocked and fired again, "CLICK"! This was a particularly high end Colt and I had never had a misfire. I kept the pistol downrange and cycled the slide just to have it lock back again. I looked into the chamber and somehow, during the reload I had left the fresh mag on the bench and had seated the empty one. It happens.
I would say keep the assortment to a minimum when you go to the range and then I'd recommend the variants be vastly different. For example, I might take a 1911, Hi-Standard target pistol and Ruger Security Six. Ammo is definitely not interchangeable and there is no way the mags would ever even look like they're going to seat.
Store the mags, ammo and associated weapon together in the house should, God forbid, you need to employ a non-readied weapon in the middle of the night.
I don't know how many weapons you own but if just a few, interchangeable rounds and mags are a good idea. The old cowboys used to carry a side arm and rifle chambered for the same rounds.
Just my $.02 and worth less than that.
I doubt anyone here with experience exceeding the nominal has not made equally embarrassing, if not more treacherous errors. When my wife met me she called me the absent minded professor. Organization was not my strong suit but I had been trained by my uncle and the army to a point where (even under rapid fire drills) it is second nature for me to check the mag and that rounds are seated before loading.
Well, a few years ago I had my 1911 at the range and when the slide locked back I dropped the mag, was talking to a friend and reloaded. Dropped the slide, took careful aim and "CLICK"! I re-cocked and fired again, "CLICK"! This was a particularly high end Colt and I had never had a misfire. I kept the pistol downrange and cycled the slide just to have it lock back again. I looked into the chamber and somehow, during the reload I had left the fresh mag on the bench and had seated the empty one. It happens.
I would say keep the assortment to a minimum when you go to the range and then I'd recommend the variants be vastly different. For example, I might take a 1911, Hi-Standard target pistol and Ruger Security Six. Ammo is definitely not interchangeable and there is no way the mags would ever even look like they're going to seat.
Store the mags, ammo and associated weapon together in the house should, God forbid, you need to employ a non-readied weapon in the middle of the night.
I don't know how many weapons you own but if just a few, interchangeable rounds and mags are a good idea. The old cowboys used to carry a side arm and rifle chambered for the same rounds.
Just my $.02 and worth less than that.
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
How do you tell the controls of your plane from the controls of a car?sawdust wrote:So, I ask those of you with the multiple pistols and their differing designs, "How do/would you truly counter those effects?"
Every pistol feels a little different in the hand. Weight, balance, grips and ergonomics, even the material of the frame and grips may be different. After a while, the brain associates "this feel" with "this manual of arms."
Hand me my Sig P250, with my eyes shut, and I'll know it. I'll know instinctively - no external safety, DAO, mag feels full/not full/empty, etc. Mag release here, unload and clear. New mag, load and seat. Again, hand me the Colt Commander, with my eyes shut, and I'll instinctively feel for the safety. My hands react along with the brain.... 1911, so mag release here... unload and clear. New mag, load and seat. I can tell them apart without thinking, but I'm familiar with both, and they feel different.
I can drive a car, auto or manual (I prefer a 5-speed truck!) but don't ask me to fly a plane!
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All guns have at least two safeties. One's digital, one's cognitive. In other words - keep the digit off the trigger until ready to fire, and THINK. Some guns also have mechanical safeties on top of those. But if the first two don't work, the mechanical ones aren't guaranteed. - me
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All guns have at least two safeties. One's digital, one's cognitive. In other words - keep the digit off the trigger until ready to fire, and THINK. Some guns also have mechanical safeties on top of those. But if the first two don't work, the mechanical ones aren't guaranteed. - me
Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
now where did I place my coloring crayons
We have all done things like that, most of us are too embarassed to post them on a forum though, gotta give you credit and a big ^5..... Bet that mistake will never happen again so chalk it up to a learning experience.....
We have all done things like that, most of us are too embarassed to post them on a forum though, gotta give you credit and a big ^5..... Bet that mistake will never happen again so chalk it up to a learning experience.....
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
I ALWAYS carry my Glock 26 with a Glock 19 magazine in it ... I prefer the shorrter slide of the 26 for easier concealment, and the higher capacity mag because it still conceals well. I use the 19 to 26 spacer though, so it won't go in my 19 ... my spare mags (Glock 17+3 baseplates) don't have spacers, so they can be used in either, just like my 33 round mags in the car and at home..
That mag release button can be tricky Some people put oversized ones or round ones on ... I left mine alone but drilled a hole in my holster so it doesn't get pushed by accident.
Ok, my turn .... first time shooting an automatic, I think in the 1980s, I had my weak hand wrist directly behind the slide.... learned fast that slide goes backwards nearly as hard as the bullet goes forward ... X-Rays were needed
That mag release button can be tricky Some people put oversized ones or round ones on ... I left mine alone but drilled a hole in my holster so it doesn't get pushed by accident.
Ok, my turn .... first time shooting an automatic, I think in the 1980s, I had my weak hand wrist directly behind the slide.... learned fast that slide goes backwards nearly as hard as the bullet goes forward ... X-Rays were needed
I'm no lawyer
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
I have put in empty mags at the range myself. If the paper target you are shooting at is a particulary vicious one and you are truly under attack, throw the malfunctioning firearm at the target, grab your trusty Gerber pocket knife and prepare to repel intruders.
Ok, maybe not what you want to do at the range.
I have numerous firearms, and enjoy them all. I only will be carrying one, which I have shot quite a bit. Double action, one in the tube, no safety. My thinking is when you get into THAT type of situation, you don't want to have to think of "processes"
My Kahr is very simple, that's why I carry it.
Ok, maybe not what you want to do at the range.
I have numerous firearms, and enjoy them all. I only will be carrying one, which I have shot quite a bit. Double action, one in the tube, no safety. My thinking is when you get into THAT type of situation, you don't want to have to think of "processes"
My Kahr is very simple, that's why I carry it.
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
+1 for one in the pipe. As we have no kiddies at home all guns (5 pistols and 2 long guns) are primed and ready...that way the "All guns are loaded" rule is true in our house. All those pesky safeties are off too (on those that have them other than the trigger and grip safeties). I guess I will be the next Glock-leg you read about.
As I say, we have no kiddies at home and both have CHL's so it was a no-brainer for us.
I have no duh! stories.....yet....but given the rate of brain cell decline I am sure they will come. My wife did find out that a .380 in a 9mm won't cycle the slide though.
As I say, we have no kiddies at home and both have CHL's so it was a no-brainer for us.
I have no duh! stories.....yet....but given the rate of brain cell decline I am sure they will come. My wife did find out that a .380 in a 9mm won't cycle the slide though.
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
Not to be disagreeable, but I disagree -to a degree. Your being able to recognize the differences of your two models assumes that you have some time to analyze the look and feel of each. Throw in something unexpected and while you may know something is different, it will take time to analyze what that difference is and why it is different. When driving a car with an automatic transmission, how many times has your left foot moved to press the "clutch"? In a critical situation, that small delay of re-orienting yourself could be significant. In various posts, multiple comments are made about how fast you need to present your weapon if a situation arises. If the upmost in speed-of-presentation is deemed vital, why is it not just as vital in being in a ready-to-fire mode? One small unexplained variance can dramatically alter the results. I guess my point in this to ask why, in self-defense situations, introduce an unnecessary element with multiple pistol configurations?quidni wrote:How do you tell the controls of your plane from the controls of a car?sawdust wrote:So, I ask those of you with the multiple pistols and their differing designs, "How do/would you truly counter those effects?"
Every pistol feels a little different in the hand. Weight, balance, grips and ergonomics, even the material of the frame and grips may be different. After a while, the brain associates "this feel" with "this manual of arms."
Hand me my Sig P250, with my eyes shut, and I'll know it. I'll know instinctively - no external safety, DAO, mag feels full/not full/empty, etc. Mag release here, unload and clear. New mag, load and seat. Again, hand me the Colt Commander, with my eyes shut, and I'll instinctively feel for the safety. My hands react along with the brain.... 1911, so mag release here... unload and clear. New mag, load and seat. I can tell them apart without thinking, but I'm familiar with both, and they feel different.
I can drive a car, auto or manual (I prefer a 5-speed truck!) but don't ask me to fly a plane!
I now know that the longer magazine will indeed work in the little brother (Bersa 9 UC)pistol. Unknowingly, I had introduced a variance, and it took my attention away from the matter at hand. I went brain-dead as to what the real problem was. Why do it deliberately with pistols that are only slightly, but critically different at a time when all admit that our abilities of fine discernment become extremely impaired?
I'm out.
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
One thing I have learned, too, is to NEVER use the slide release to chamber a round. Use your other hand to pull the slide back and have it go in to battery. In a defensive situation, you lose valuable time trying to fidget around to release a slide that is in a locked position, when you can just pull the assembly back. I do this all the time now and have gotten it engrained in my head to the point that it is muscle memory.
As for the OP: training, training, training...it's about all I can say on that. I own quite a few firearms, but only train with one. My everyday carry...and if I ever have to use a rifle, I go to my AR as I know it inside and out (thanks Uncle Sam!!)
As for the OP: training, training, training...it's about all I can say on that. I own quite a few firearms, but only train with one. My everyday carry...and if I ever have to use a rifle, I go to my AR as I know it inside and out (thanks Uncle Sam!!)
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
LOL...RM9792...this point is EXACTLY why the Safariland 6004 I put on the "pay it forward" thread still has the hang tag on it. The 92 was issued, but I had carried a 1911 for years, and had the good fortune to be allowed to carry a 1911 if I so wished. Buh-Bye 92....rm9792 wrote:I have multiple pistols (arsenal, cache, etc in lib speak) but I only carry 1911's. For example, flipping a Beretta 92 up is for fire but will lock a 1911, not good in a defensive situation.
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
Here is my answer to your question, and I say it without a trace of malice.... ....Pay Attention!
About 14 years ago, I had a negligent discharge with my .44 magnum, in my bedroom. It happened because I thought I had emptied the cylinder before trying out the single action let-off on the trigger. I opened the cylinder, dumped the rounds into my hand, and thought to myself, "yeah, that looks like six." I pointed the barrel toward the ceiling, right next to my left ear (I'm left handed) and started cocking and dry-firing the pistol. That worked fine 3 or 4 times, but not so well on the next one.
I shot a hole in the ceiling, and deafened myself for the next couple of weeks.
Praise Jesus nobody got hurt. But ever since then, I've been a fanatic about making sure the pistol I'm picking up is either loaded, or unloaded, according to my purpose. An embarrassing lesson taught me to pay attention. The most important safety on any of my guns is the one between my ears.
About 14 years ago, I had a negligent discharge with my .44 magnum, in my bedroom. It happened because I thought I had emptied the cylinder before trying out the single action let-off on the trigger. I opened the cylinder, dumped the rounds into my hand, and thought to myself, "yeah, that looks like six." I pointed the barrel toward the ceiling, right next to my left ear (I'm left handed) and started cocking and dry-firing the pistol. That worked fine 3 or 4 times, but not so well on the next one.
I shot a hole in the ceiling, and deafened myself for the next couple of weeks.
Praise Jesus nobody got hurt. But ever since then, I've been a fanatic about making sure the pistol I'm picking up is either loaded, or unloaded, according to my purpose. An embarrassing lesson taught me to pay attention. The most important safety on any of my guns is the one between my ears.
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Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
I don't wish to sidetrack from the excellent question posed by the OP, but the Beretta 92 safety is more easily disengaged by pressing down as demonstrated here:Humanphibian wrote:LOL...RM9792...this point is EXACTLY why the Safariland 6004 I put on the "pay it forward" thread still has the hang tag on it. The 92 was issued, but I had carried a 1911 for years, and had the good fortune to be allowed to carry a 1911 if I so wished. Buh-Bye 92....rm9792 wrote:I have multiple pistols (arsenal, cache, etc in lib speak) but I only carry 1911's. For example, flipping a Beretta 92 up is for fire but will lock a 1911, not good in a defensive situation.
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As to the original question....I do have several different handguns with different features and manual of arms. The only ones I carry are free of manual safeties and DAO. They are carried with a round chambered so I know that to bring any one of them into action all that is needed to to depress the trigger. I feel this limits any possible stress induced confusion.
Re: Well.... Color Me Stupid
Just a quick off the top example. Another would be my HK which decocks if you push the lever down, not what I would want to happen.