U. S. military weapons fail in battle?

[bdickens]

I just don't get how after 40 years this myth is still going around that the M-16 platform is unreliable.

Name another platform for which very nearly every tactical instructor recommends you pull the mag back out and make sure a round chambered.

Name another platform for which very nearly every tactical instructor recommends that you short-load the mags by at least two rounds.

I never heard of that in seven-and-a-half years of active duty and two years in the reserves.

[casingpoint]

what is needed to achieve the goals?

German guns from WWII.

[C-dub]

I recall an episode of Future Weapons in which Mac tests some variant of an M16 platform in which the rifle fires from a closed bolt under semi-auto, and from an open bolt on full-auto. He pulled the gun out of a bucket of water and it fired without failure. He buried it in sand, pulled it out and fired it without failure. And after emptying a 30 round mag on full auto, the receiver was cool to the touch. I don't remember who the manufacturer of the rifle was, but it seemed like a good idea on the surface of it.

Is this what you're talking about?....

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or this?

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It is the H&K 416.

(From Wikipedia)...

"The HK416 is an assault rifle designed and manufactured by Heckler & Koch. It is an improved version of the M4 carbine with many changes, most notably a new style gas system borrowed from the HK G36. It is available as a complete firearm or as an upper receiver kit that fits on any AR-15 type lower receiver."

"In July 2007, the US Army announced a limited competition between the M4 carbine, FN SCAR, HK416, and the previously-shelved HK XM8. Ten examples of each of the four competitors were involved. Each weapon was fired for 60,000 rounds in an "extreme dust environment." The purpose of the shootoff was for assessing future needs, not to select a replacement for the M4. The XM8 scored the best, with only 127 stoppages in 60,000 total rounds, the FN SCAR Light had 226 stoppages, while the HK416 had 233 stoppages. The M4 carbine scored "significantly worse" than the rest of the field with 882 stoppages."

I believe that they are about to introduce a civilian version (H&K MR556) - not sure when they will introduce it to the public. It does look mighty fine!

What are your opinions of the H&K 416?

That's it. I saw it and was truly impressed. If I could afford a little black rifle, that would be the one for me.

[TEX]

The M16 variants have been a problem from the beginning and continue to be even though some of the minor problems have been fixed. I would trust an AK, FAL, M1-A, etc. over the M4. I wonder if part of the reason they had to fire so many rounds is because the .223 simply will not break through as must cover and get to a enemy as a 308 or the 7.62x39 will. If you read Blackhawk down there are numerous decriptions of bad guys having to be hit multiple times to put them down, so even a single solid hit may have not been immediatl stopper in this fight. IMHO we need a better battle rifle and a better round than the M4 and the 5.56, just as I think we need to dump the 9mm for pistols and go back to a 45.

TEX

[surprise_i'm_armed]

On page 1 of this thread, TAM had posted a longish piece which contained this:

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

Does anyone know what rifle this is?

**************************************************

During a D-Day show, probably on the History Channel they interviewed an old man who
had been a German soldier who manned a bunker overlooking Normandy Beach.

He was a machine gunner. I don't know which German MG he had. Here was this pleasant
looking grandfatherly gentleman, recalling the battle. He had 12 boxes of ammo for his MG.
Each box had 1,000 rounds. After he had killed as many Allied troops as possible with his
12,000 rounds, he escaped from the bunker and was captured by Allied troops.

He never let on what his mission had just been since he expected to have been executed
on the spot. He may have been one of the deadliest German defenders that day.

No mention was made on how long it took him to fire 12,000 rounds. No mention was made of
any failures.

SIA

[longhorn_92]

On page 1 of this thread, TAM had posted a longish piece which contained this:

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

Does anyone know what rifle this is?

**************************************************

SIA

My guess would be either the H&K 416 or the FN SCAR.... not sure?...

[KD5NRH]

The instructors also recommend a press check for ALL pistol platforms, does that make the 1911, Glock, H&K, Baretta, SIG, M&P, HiPower, and others unreliable? Making sure the weapon picked up a round is just good sense not a flaw.

I've never heard anyone recommend a press check immediately after chambering on a pistol, only as a "confidence check" to make sure that a nightstand or carry gun hasn't been unloaded since the last check.

[LostInAustin]

H&K 416

[MoJo]

The instructors also recommend a press check for ALL pistol platforms, does that make the 1911, Glock, H&K, Baretta, SIG, M&P, HiPower, and others unreliable? Making sure the weapon picked up a round is just good sense not a flaw.

I've never heard anyone recommend a press check immediately after chambering on a pistol, only as a "confidence check" to make sure that a nightstand or carry gun hasn't been unloaded since the last check.

The gun is a mechanical device, Murphy's law has never been repealed, do a press check when loading, you may be surprised sometime to see your blaster didn't pick up a round. Why do you think Tap, Rack, Bang is the drill for a gun that goes "click" instead of "bang?"

[Purplehood]

On page 1 of this thread, TAM had posted a longish piece which contained this:

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

Does anyone know what rifle this is?

**************************************************

During a D-Day show, probably on the History Channel they interviewed an old man who
had been a German soldier who manned a bunker overlooking Normandy Beach.

He was a machine gunner. I don't know which German MG he had. Here was this pleasant
looking grandfatherly gentleman, recalling the battle. He had 12 boxes of ammo for his MG.
Each box had 1,000 rounds. After he had killed as many Allied troops as possible with his
12,000 rounds, he escaped from the bunker and was captured by Allied troops.

He never let on what his mission had just been since he expected to have been executed
on the spot. He may have been one of the deadliest German defenders that day.

No mention was made on how long it took him to fire 12,000 rounds. No mention was made of
any failures.

SIA

If I recall correctly, those gunners on the beach had captured and well-maintained machine-guns of Polish or French manufacture. I can't recall which one.

[The Annoyed Man]

On page 1 of this thread, TAM had posted a longish piece which contained this:

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

Does anyone know what rifle this is?

**************************************************

SIA

My guess would be either the H&K 416 or the FN SCAR.... not sure?...

I'm pretty sure it's the HK416, which Delta Force has been using in limited numbers for a few years now. I don't think the SCAR has reached field use yet.

[Liberty]

The M-16 series has had problems with jamming since coming in service. I hated carrying it in Vietnam. Gave it up for a M-79 Thumper and a 45. I'm amazed a General is unaware for the problem. When that young female was captured and rescued she said her weapon and her Sargent's weapon jammed and could not be cleared. Overheating can be a problem with any automatic weapon. The 2nd version of the M-16 had a selector switch for single or three shot burst. They removed the option of full automatic because too many troops would not use trigetr control and either overheated the barrel or ran out of ammo in the middle of a firefight. Everyone should know that it is impossible to maintain a weapon in the middle of a firefight, no matter how clean it was when you started. I don't remember any malfuncations with the M-60 machine gun, but wasn't round one much. We NEED a service rifle that will not fail when it is most needed.

I just don't get how after 40 years this myth is still going around that the M-16 platform is unreliable.

Ermm.. The gujy wasd there. !!!! Folks in Vietnam were getting killed because the gun jammed. Then the blamed it on mud dirt and water. Today they give the gun a different name M4 and blame it on the dust. If we as a nation really wanted to win either war we would give our soldiers guns that work. The truth is they didn't want to win Vietnam and they don't want to win this one. Dead soldiers make political points!!!

I used a m60 a bit. They don't jam until the pile of brass starts avalanching into the gun.

[Purplehood]

Why didn't we hear anything about this from Iraqi Campaign veterans (including those that came to Afghanistan)?

We heard about lousy body-armor, under-armored Humvees and even tactical T-shirts, but nothing about M4's except Reservist Motor T drivers that didn't maintain their weapons.

I liked my M4 and I did shoot it.

[bdickens]

And of course, I have no experience with the M-16 platform.