U. S. military weapons fail in battle?

[57Coastie]

AP reports M4 and M249 failures in Afghanistan battle where 9 US soldiers killed and 27 wounded.

http://www.theeagle.com/nation/U-S--wea ... l-in-fight" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jim

[Purplehood]

My guess is that the nasty dust in E. Afghanistan does a number on an M4. If you averaged out the number of times I carried my M4 outside the wire, it would come down to about twice a week for the whole time I was there (all day missions). The grunts in the outposts use their weapon daily, hence the requirement for more maintenance (defined as cleaning). I could get away with cleaning my weapon after each mission and not suffer any ill-effects.
BTW, the dust in E. Afghanistan is quite pervasive.

[The Annoyed Man]

I saw the same story in a different article yesterday:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091011/D9B8SUPO0.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oct 11, 8:28 AM (ET)

By RICHARD LARDNER

WASHINGTON (AP) - In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.

Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

"The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.

Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal.

Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said.

The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet.

Cubbison's study is based on an earlier Army investigation and interviews with soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a highly skilled enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.
The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.

Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.

On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.

"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute.

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report.

[Purplehood]

The M-249 is a light-machine gun hunk of junk. My security element wouldn't let us bring ours as they said it was too light to do any good. They should know as they were all fresh out of Iraq.

[The Annoyed Man]

My guess is that the nasty dust in E. Afghanistan does a number on an M4. If you averaged out the number of times I carried my M4 outside the wire, it would come down to about twice a week for the whole time I was there (all day missions). The grunts in the outposts use their weapon daily, hence the requirement for more maintenance (defined as cleaning). I could get away with cleaning my weapon after each mission and not suffer any ill-effects.
BTW, the dust in E. Afghanistan is quite pervasive.

In the article, it appears that the rate of fire and number of rounds fired in a given time may also have had something to do with it. I have no experience with such things myself, but it seems to me that descriptions of barrels glowing white hot can't be good if they are true. Couldn't the high heat have anything to do with the jamming/malfunctions too?

[Purplehood]

In my experience, E. Afghanistan was fairly moderate for highs and lows of temperature. It reminded me of the Western Slope in Colorado where I grew up. I was right on the Pakistan border and visited some of the outposts. I doubt ambient temperature was the culprit. My guess is that it was simply barrels that could not take the extreme demands for Rate of Fire.

[The Annoyed Man]

In my experience, E. Afghanistan was fairly moderate for highs and lows of temperature. It reminded me of the Western Slope in Colorado where I grew up. I was right on the Pakistan border and visited some of the outposts. I doubt ambient temperature was the culprit. My guess is that it was simply barrels that could not take the extreme demands for Rate of Fire.

I meant barrel temperature, not ambient temperature. Sorry about the confusion. The article mentions "white hot" barrels. I assume that if a barrel glows white hot, the properties of the metal are changed, bore diameters are affected one way or the other, etc., etc.

[Purplehood]

In my experience, E. Afghanistan was fairly moderate for highs and lows of temperature. It reminded me of the Western Slope in Colorado where I grew up. I was right on the Pakistan border and visited some of the outposts. I doubt ambient temperature was the culprit. My guess is that it was simply barrels that could not take the extreme demands for Rate of Fire.

I meant barrel temperature, not ambient temperature. Sorry about the confusion. The article mentions "white hot" barrels. I assume that if a barrel glows white hot, the properties of the metal are changed, bore diameters are affected one way or the other, etc., etc.

I fully agree. Our big-old M2HB was quite reliable. You knew you were going to change out the barrel after a few thousand rounds. It was built to do that in the middle of a fight.

[KD5NRH]

The article mentions "white hot" barrels. I assume that if a barrel glows white hot, the properties of the metal are changed, bore diameters are affected one way or the other, etc., etc.

I'm not entirely sure that gunpowder could actually get a barrel white hot. I've done some blacksmithing, and there's a huge range of red/orange/yellow hot temperatures before white. Then there's the fact that orange hot metal within a foot of your face will get very painful very quickly.

[MechAg94]

Sounds to me like they are using mass attacks on small outposts in hope of getting some victories and killing our troops. That seems like a bigger problem to me than a rifle that is getting too hot after 12 mags. Sounds like they need more spares at least.

[Purplehood]

The thing about small outposts that is important to remember, is that there needs to be a big one nearby that can quickly reinforce it. When there are simply a bunch of small ones throughout the area, they are simply defined as "targets of opportunity".

[The Annoyed Man]

The article mentions "white hot" barrels. I assume that if a barrel glows white hot, the properties of the metal are changed, bore diameters are affected one way or the other, etc., etc.

I'm not entirely sure that gunpowder could actually get a barrel white hot. I've done some blacksmithing, and there's a huge range of red/orange/yellow hot temperatures before white. Then there's the fact that orange hot metal within a foot of your face will get very painful very quickly.

but it's not just gun powder involved. There is friction too, between the bullet and the bore. Operating at full auto, that part of the barrel temperature which is due to friction can add up quite a bit.

I recall an episode of Future Weapons in which Mac tests some variant of an M16 platform in which the rifle fires from a closed bolt under semi-auto, and from an open bolt on full-auto. He pulled the gun out of a bucket of water and it fired without failure. He buried it in sand, pulled it out and fired it without failure. And after emptying a 30 round mag on full auto, the receiver was cool to the touch. I don't remember who the manufacturer of the rifle was, but it seemed like a good idea on the surface of it.

[Silverhawk]

The M-16 series has had problems with jamming since coming in service. I hated carrying it in Vietnam. Gave it up for a M-79 Thumper and a 45. I'm amazed a General is unaware for the problem. When that young female was captured and rescued she said her weapon and her Sargent's weapon jammed and could not be cleared. Overheating can be a problem with any automatic weapon. The 2nd version of the M-16 had a selector switch for single or three shot burst. They removed the option of full automatic because too many troops would not use trigetr control and either overheated the barrel or ran out of ammo in the middle of a firefight. Everyone should know that it is impossible to maintain a weapon in the middle of a firefight, no matter how clean it was when you started. I don't remember any malfuncations with the M-60 machine gun, but wasn't round one much. We NEED a service rifle that will not fail when it is most needed.

[MoJo]

No individual weapon system can stand up to the volume of fire the articles said they were having to deliver. The problems are heat, powder fouling, loss of lubricant through break down, burning and being slung off. This is like your automobile being run at full throttle without coolant and oil - - - you aren't going to get very far.

When a superior force attacks you have to get reinforcements, artillery and air support or you will wind up in the same situation those guys were in.

I don't know about white hot, but I have seen barrels on M60 machine guns glowing. The barrel is ruined after doing this but you do what you gotta do.

[Purplehood]

The M-16 series has had problems with jamming since coming in service. I hated carrying it in Vietnam. Gave it up for a M-79 Thumper and a 45. I'm amazed a General is unaware for the problem. When that young female was captured and rescued she said her weapon and her Sargent's weapon jammed and could not be cleared. Overheating can be a problem with any automatic weapon. The 2nd version of the M-16 had a selector switch for single or three shot burst. They removed the option of full automatic because too many troops would not use trigetr control and either overheated the barrel or ran out of ammo in the middle of a firefight. Everyone should know that it is impossible to maintain a weapon in the middle of a firefight, no matter how clean it was when you started. I don't remember any malfuncations with the M-60 machine gun, but wasn't round one much. We NEED a service rifle that will not fail when it is most needed.

I seem to recall that the young lady captured in Iraq had a jammed-gun due to poor-maintenance and training. But then again, that is usually the mantra from the Brass when explaining those kind of weapon-system issues.