Burglars Posing as Cops Invade Lubbock Home

[KBCraig]

If these guys burst into your home in the middle of the night, would you shoot?

Police don't do themselves or the citizens any favors when they play ninja or special forces.

Kevin

[gigag04]

If these guys burst into your home in the middle of the night, would you shoot?

Police don't do themselves or the citizens any favors when they play ninja or special forces.

Kevin

No - I would not. It stinks but...I'm not willing to take a chance at shooting a cop. I'll keep it concealed until asked for ID or decide that it's time to shoot back.

[Boma]

Isn't the reason they cover their faces is to protect their identities from the criminal retribution?

[KBCraig]

Isn't the reason they cover their faces is to protect their identities from the criminal retribution?

Unfortunately, masks also protect them from being identified by innocent citizens who have been abused.

At one time, masks were only seen in the case of an undercover officer who couldn't risk being seen performing overt police duties. These days, it's (quietly) acknowledged in police circles that masks and other ninja gear serve mostly to intimidate. Part of the intimidation takes the form of, "I better cooperate and give up my rights, because these guys could beat the crap out of me and I could never identify who did it."

I hope y'all understand that I mean no disrespect to officers on the street. But as a free man and an American, I expect police to do their jobs openly and publicly. The fear of legal punishment should be the only intimidating factor in any encounter with police.

Kevin

[JB3]

I have been worried about this situation happening, and I have one idea, to have you more experienced people kick around. The planning that goes into most swat operations leave it very unlikely of a wrong address for swat. So how about this scenario, when the yelling starts or the banging on doors begin, how about having a revolver or other gun loaded with good blanks, and fire off two shots, to put a little time on your side to be able to call 911 and tell them, that some people are trying to enter, and if it is legit that you will comply, or else real shots would follow. This is only a food for thought but we need to have a plan IMO. Any critiques are welcome

John

[gigag04]

I have been worried about this situation happening, and I have one idea, to have you more experienced people kick around. The planning that goes into most swat operations leave it very unlikely of a wrong address for swat. So how about this scenario, when the yelling starts or the banging on doors begin, how about having a revolver or other gun loaded with good blanks, and fire off two shots, to put a little time on your side to be able to call 911 and tell them, that some people are trying to enter, and if it is legit that you will comply, or else real shots would follow. This is only a food for thought but we need to have a plan IMO. Any critiques are welcome

John

Too risky - they have someone that already has the drop on you and they may drop you if they see you shooting anything.

[wrt45]

The planning that goes into most swat operations leave it very unlikely of a wrong address for swat.

John

I'm not sure I can buy this. I keep reading too many horror stories about the bureaucratic bungling of simple details in all aspects of government to put too much trust in police making no mistakes.

A couple of years ago I had an officer roll up to the driveway behind my house where I was working on a car. He jumped out and asked me about the fight he said was going on in my yard. I told him, "Sorry, no fight here!" I had been there all day, and nothing of the sort had gone on.

He got irate with me, threatening me if I were hiding something from him. When he finally mentioned the address, it was two streets over, with the same numbers. He's an officer who has been on the force here for several years, but he got his streets mixed up that day. We live in a small town of only 9,000 people, so there aren't that many streets. What if it were a metropolis?

BTW, he never apologized for his rude behavior before or after realizing his mistake. Police are human. They are going to make mistakes, even without the bureaucracies to mess things up.

[Paladin]

The planning that goes into most swat operations leave it very unlikely of a wrong address for swat.

Note very likely, maybe 1 in 1000 raids, but it does happen:


John Adams:
64 years old
Lebanon, Tennessee
October, 2000 Shot to death during a SWAT drug raid while watching TV. The house didn't match the description on the warrant.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=19705



Willie Heard:
46 years old
Osawatomie, Kansas
February, 1999 SWAT conducted a no-knock drug raid, complete with flash-bang grenades. Heard was shot to death in front of his wife and 16-year-old daughter who had cried for help. Fearing home invasion, he was holding an empty rifle. The raid was at the wrong house.


Ismael Mena:
45 years old
Denver, Colorado
September, 1999 Mena was killed when police barged into his house looking for drugs. They had the wrong address.


Alberta Spruill:
57 years old
Harlem, New York
May, 2003 Police, acting on a tip, forced their way into Spruill's home, setting off flash grenades. She suffered a heart attack and died. It was the wrong address.


Accelyne Williams:
75 years old
Boston, Massachusetts
March, 1994 Accelyne was a retired Methodist Minister and substance abuse counselor. After an informant gave police a bad address, a SWAT raid was conducted on the minster's home. The door was battered down, Williams was tackled to the floor and his hands tied behind his back. He died of a heart attack.

http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/ ... ctims.html

[JB3]

Thanks for the replies. I have Googled "swat wrong address" and have found quite a few instances of this happening, but my thought was that if, in this day and time, I have people trying to storm my house I will assume that it is the BGs and will react accordingly. The reason I replied on this thread was, it brought up memories of a long time ago, over in a small Asian country. If my boat or crew were fired on, we were, according to rules of engagement, required to open the C.A.C. manual, find the three letter code, which changed every week, for "fired upon, request permission to fire back" and radio it in. I swore to myself after that, that I would never hesitate to defend myself should the situation arise. It may end very bad, but it will be on my terms

John

[KBCraig]

I had several options as to which thread to post this news item, but decided this one would be the best.

Radley Balko has written a white paper for the Cato Institute about SWAT-style service of warrants, and has documented the instances of officers killed, innocents killed, wrong address raided, etc., and put it all on a very impressive Google map.

Here's the link to his paper:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476

And here's the map:
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
(It will take some time to load fully; there's a lot of information there.)

If you select "Texas" and hit "submit", you'll get a very sobering list of bad results from SWAT-style raids in Texas.

It makes me think that we shouldn't worry so much about bad guys dressed as cops; the real danger might be from real cops with the wrong address, or acting on a tip that's based on lies.

Kevin

[longtooth]

Fully agree smurf. Only one thing needs to be changed. It goes back to one of the things I tell folks that decide to carry. I tell them, you not only need to decide that I will use the gun I carry but also confess that there is a possibility that I may loose the gunfight. If I loose the gunfight you can be sure that I would have lost the fight if I did not bring a gun. This I have already decided because I have known the facts of above wrong addresses. FACTS;
1. I know I have broken no laws.
2. Therefore the guys hollering POLICE cannot be. I don't have time to decide, look closely at uniform patches, call 911, ask for ID...as has been suggested above.
3. They outnumber me probably 10/1 or more. Probably more.
4. They have me greatly out armed & vastly out armored, & horrendously out ammoed.
5. When that shooting stops I won't be able to ask them for ID & I know that ahead of time. There are still some of us today that stand at the bridge of 1775.

[Venus Pax]

I have to agree with longtooth on that one. I am a law-abiding citizen. If you're beating my door down and yelling "POLICE", then you probably aren't.
People not only risk death when their homes are invaded. They risk rape, torture, kidnapping, among other things. I'll take my chances in the gun fight. Since Christ's blood has paid for my sins, I am secure in where I'm going when I leave the earth. Are they?

[cyphur]

This is a curious situation. As prior service I can appreciate that mistakes happen, and you can't walk into a gunfight wondering if you're right. Otherwise you stand a good chance you won't return to your families afterwards.

With that said, if people are banging down my door with a facemask and no warning, they are going to be shot upon contact, plain and simple.

[longtooth]

Good conclusion Venus