Shot placement is more important than caliber but...

[pbwalker]

A couple of months back we got my wife a small handgun that she can keep in her purse. I had her try revolvers, SA's, and the sort. She didn't like the 9mm Sigma I had but liked the .38 Special she shot. We went to a local gun shop and had her handle a few different weapons. She fell in love with a small Taurus .25 ACP.

Now my question...what can she realistically expect from this weapon? Is it even capable of penetrating the sternum from 5 feet away? Should I have her look for something similar in size but a higher caliber? It's got my concerned as she's 7 months pregnant and will be out around town with the baby very soon.

I realize she'll never get .45 stopping power from a sub-compact, but I figured I would ask the gurus here...

Thanks!

-bw

[iratollah]

While there have been a surprising number of mortal wounds created by the lowly .25, your wife may be unpleasantly surprised by the amount of recoil in that very small gun. My experience is that novice shooters want to try the .25 because it's so unintimidating in appearance. Then they act surprised when it actually goes bang.

[boomerang]

Can she reliably hit the eye socket of a bobble head target?

[DoubleJ]

Last episode of Crime 360 I watched, a Richmond, Virginia guy was shot once in the back with a .25.
the round entered his left lung posteriorly, exited his left lung, bounced off a rib anteriorly and remained in the chest cavity.
dude died. from one hit. didn't even hit his heart.
so thur ya urr.

[Excaliber]

Now my question...what can she realistically expect from this weapon?

The short answer is that, while a very lucky shot from a .25 may eventually be fatal, a more typical experience in the short term is multiple rounds expended on the target with no effect on the attacker's actions in a short enough time frame to be of comfort to the victim.

Attackers are stopped by:

1) Psychological shock (they think they're hurt badly so they shut themselves down - not common)
2) Destruction of a critical component of the musculoskeletal support structure (e.g., the pelvis) - won't happen with a .25
3) Destruction of a critical component of the central nervous system (brain or spine) - would require VERY lucky shot with a .25, e.g. through an eye socket
4) Loss of oxygenation to the brain from either the destruction of the circulatory system or massive hemorrhage due to damage to major organs (heart) or blood vessels (aorta, pulmonary artery, etc.)

Even large caliber bullets give widely varying results, and there are no "magic" handgun rounds that deliver a one shot stop all the time. The rule of thumb is that bigger bullets carry more energy, penetrate deeper, and create larger wound channels than smaller bullets. As would be expected, they deliver proportionately better results.

An example occurred in my neighborhood when I lived in Florida. A BG forcibly entered a single woman's home at 06:30 and attacker her in her bedroom. She reached her .25 auto and emptied it into him. He proceeded to severely beat her until he lost consciousness from his wounds. The victim was beaten so badly, when she went to a neighbor's door for help he didn't recognize her and refused to let her inside.

While the victim in this case survived because the damage she was able to inflict with her .25 was sufficient to disable her attacker before he finished killing her, the damage she suffered was severe. If an outcome similar to this is acceptable to you, the .25 may meet your requirements. Otherwise, make the additional investment in time, effort, and money to go with a .38 or larger caliber.

A similar topic was discussed at some length in another thread under "Anyone else CCW a Mousegun?" Before you make a final purchasing decision, you may want to review it at:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... =7&t=16349

[WarHawk-AVG]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/25ACP.html

These guys have good ballistic gel scenarios

Remember the FBI says in order to be effective the bullet must penetrate approx 12" of badguy

Even those anemic .25acp can cut pretty deep in fact
CCI Blazer 50 grain FMJ. Penetrated to 16" and exited the back of the block

P.S. Wanna see numerous calibers used on calibrated ballistic gel
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html

Also the smallest caliber that they allow to be used at the CHL range is .32 caliber (well at least at my range), so I think perhaps a Kel-Tec P3AT or other mousegun might be a better option

[shootthesheet]

If she can stand the trigger on a P3AT I would say she should get it. I personally don't trust anything less than a .380 and don't like that unless I have no choice. I wouldn't carry anything smaller and encourage anyone else not to.

I personally think the P3AT is the most near perfect inexpensive gun a woman could have. I have heard of women that tuck one inside their bra like a shoulder holster. The gun is lightweight and much more effective than, in my opinion, a .25 that is most likely heavier. I hate the trigger but for that size and weight, I deal with it.

It is better she have a .25 than nothing. If she can't or won't find another gun I say, let it be for now. She has something and that something may be enough. Keep looking and suggesting and her practicing when she is able. That may mean dad is home with the little one while mom is at the range with friends. And if she has none that shoot I hope you find her a female shooting buddy. They don't have to be intimate friends but should have common interest. That is all just a reminder as I am sure you are on top of things. Good luck and God bless you all.

[TxD]

The obligatory Jeff Cooper quote on the .25 ACP.

"As we used to teach in the spook business, carry a 25 if it makes you feel
good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot
it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody - and he finds out about it
- he may be very angry with you."

Jeff Cooper
From Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Vol. 4, No. 14
December 1996

[DoubleJ]

Last episode of Crime 360 I watched, a Richmond, Virginia guy was shot once in the back with a .25.
the round entered his left lung posteriorly, exited his left lung, bounced off a rib anteriorly and remained in the chest cavity.
dude died. from one hit. didn't even hit his heart.
so thur ya urr.

as a caveat to this, as well, the "victim" ran two blocks and finally bled out in someone's front yard.
what's interesting to me, at least, is that the women I have seen shoot prefer bigger than what you'd expect calibers.
I bought my gal a Bersa .380 as a gift. she loves it, and can shoot it pretty well.
she, however, prefers her Springfield XD in .40S&W.
I'd say let have her shoot a few different options, and most of all, let her pick them out.
a smaller gun is going to have more recoil, as well, so she may not really want a smaller gun in the long run.
I know a few ladies that prefer a snub nosed revolver in .38Spl, but have seen plenty shoot much bigger just as well.

[HerbM]

A couple of months back we got my wife a small handgun that she can keep in her purse. I had her try revolvers, SA's, and the sort. She didn't like the 9mm Sigma I had but liked the .38 Special she shot. We went to a local gun shop and had her handle a few different weapons. She fell in love with a small Taurus .25 ACP.

Now my question...what can she realistically expect from this weapon? Is it even capable of penetrating the sternum from 5 feet away? Should I have her look for something similar in size but a higher caliber? It's got my concerned as she's 7 months pregnant and will be out around town with the baby very soon.

I realize she'll never get .45 stopping power from a sub-compact, but I figured I would ask the gurus here...

Thanks!

-bw

You are getting a lot of good advice (in this thread). Ultimately this is a STATISTICS game for most people. Only a lucky shot, or someone with the skill to be absolutely certain of shot placement (e.g., highly experienced and successful professional assassin) can be assured that any round will stop a criminal attacker immediately before the attacker causes injury or death.

Statistically, better ballistics and better shot placement will get you a quicker stop of the attack. Any caliber can fail, including a through and through 12 gauge center-of-mass from 1 o'clock front entrance to 8 o'clock exit in the rear. Gabe Suarez post: http://www.whenshtf.com/showthread.php?t=2167 Definitely worth reading multiple times.

For most/many people, a larger caliber is not as controllable as a smaller, but a smaller firearm is not as controllable as a larger one. So the article above by Gabe Suarez what really matters...(and it doesn't necessarily agree with my own preference for a .45 -- FOR ME -- but that is because people and situations are different.)

This must be a weighed against things like the likelihood of having the firearm available (the old 12 gauge at home doesn't beat the .380 you have in your hand) and the numbers of rounds in the firearm (and maybe available for reload. Firing until the threat is STOPPED means that you must not run out of ammunition first. Again, one perfect shot is preferable to 3 misses, but 9 misses or peripheral hits followed by a success stopping shot is better than running out of ammunition at the 9th round.

Try to find her something bigger that she LIKES AS MUCH (or nearly as much). Encourage practice with whatever she has.

My wife and many people have a .380 they like, that is small and concealable, and uses the same WIDTH bullet as a 9mm (less power, less mass though).

One thing that worries me about "purse carry" of a small gun is:

Will she have it in her hand when the threat is closing on her or she is in the grasp of an attacker?


The threat you anticipate may never actually become a real danger...and it is almost always easier to 'react' if you start first.

[WildBill]

IMO "falling in love with a gun" is a poor reason to choose a primary carry handgun. I think that your wife will find a .25ACP easy to carry, but difficult to shoot and impossible to shoot accurately beyond 10 feet. I also think .25ACP is too small a caliber for self defense.

I have a little .380 AMT Backup that is very small, but it difficult to shoot accurately. It has a heavy recoil because it is so small. It is okay as a BUG, but not for primary carry.

Keep looking. There are many better choices.

[bdickens]

I think she can reasonably expect to make someone very angry if - God forbid! - she ever has to use it.

[doc540]

My wife is comfortable shooting a Smith snub in .38 Special.

We're currently trying different grips and ammo loads to determine what she likes and shoots best.


(trigger discipline and pose were intentional)

YMMV

[KBCraig]

If she insists on carrying in her purse, then a Desert Eagle .50 --or a brick-- would be more effective than a .25 ACP.

Reason being, her purse swung by the straps is a more effective weapon, especially when it contains something big, heavy, and hard.

[mr.72]

FWIW a Kel Tec P32 has a pretty stout and uncomfortable recoil... stepping up a Kahr PM9 (a little bigger, 9mm) has less felt recoil as I assume the similarly-sized (cheaper) Kel Tec PF9 would have... a Kahr CW9 has even less recoil and of course as they get bigger, the felt recoil gets less.

Point is that even a .32 can have a pretty harsh recoil when you shoot it.

I think there are a lot of things about small guns that make them attractive to women. They don't look as dangerous. They look like they'd be easy to slip in and carry in any manner one might choose. They are "cute". Certainly concealment is a big deal so there is something to be said for small especially for small-framed people who choose tight clothing like many women. Once we have the funds on hand I will have to go through this same process with my wife... choosing a gun for her to carry that will conceal on her modelesque figure under junior-section clothing is not going to be a simple matter. But 9mm is the choice for me, .380 is the bare minimum.