Buying and selling firearms online - an idea

[drw]

As a few folks on this forum know, I'm an enthusiast of buying and (occasionally) selling firearms directly to fellow shooters in Texas. I prefer FTF transfers, for a couple reasons:

1) I find that individuals sell their NIB and used firearms for less than what dealers are willing to sell for.

2) Being able to meet FTF enables you to make friends, which I have done on this forum and for which I am grateful. Buying from a dealer just doesn't give you the same experience.

3) I don't think it's any of the government's business what kind of gun I am buying or selling, as long as I am following the law (which I always do).

I know that the law is that the government is required to destroy NICS information within 24 hours of a check, but there is no guarantee that this is actually be enforced. Moreover, transferring through an FFL leaves another paper trail that the ATF has access to. These issues create a de facto gun registration that leave me (and a lot of others) quite uncomfortable. Thankfully, we have a legal option here: face to face transactions.

So, I have 6 websites that I regularly monitor looking for new items that come up that may strike my fancy. I've noticed some serious shortcoming, however, that frustrate my search and that I think could and should be addressed:

1) Most of the classified ads sites are forum based, which works great for discussions, but not so good for classifieds. More over, many of these forums have objectionable content (THR comes to mind).

2) Many of the sites are almost 100% dealers, which is useless for those wishing to avoid dealers for the reasons mentioned above. Gunbroker.com comes to mind on this one.

3) Most of the sites do not let you limit your search to just firearms in your own state. For me, I don't care if someone is selling a firearm in Ohio; that doesn't help me as I'm preferring a non-FFL transaction in my own state.

I have the means, ability and desire to create a classified ads type website that lets people post firearms for sale, specifically for face to face/private party transactions, and allow the buyers to limit their browsing to just items in their own state. No dealers allowed.

My question is, do ya'll think such an endeavor is in fact needed and wanted, and would it be worth the work for me to create it?

[boomerang]

My question is, what do you plan to do differently to prevent the problems you see on other sites? (Dealers, Discussion)
Even something like craigslist ends up having discussion posts and there's no real way to block the determined dealers.
I'm not saying no but I think you need to spend enough time on design before starting building it to avoid all the flaws.

I also think any existing national board (like glocktalk) could make their existing classifieds much more useful by
1. requiring sellers to put their state code in the title and enforcing it by deleting posts that violate the rule and
2. allowing users to search the classifieds by state code (instead of having a 3 or 4 letter minimum search word)

[drw]

My question is, what do you plan to do differently to prevent the problems you see on other sites? (Dealers, Discussion)

Moderate the thing, and remove the stuff that doesn't belong. Perhaps consider adding a craigslist style "flagging" system. If the rules are clear and enforced, I don't see that being a problem.

there's no real way to block the determined dealers.

Deleting their posts, and banning them completely if they won't comply with the rules. Also, the software can be developed to detect dealers and other rule-breakers, and alert a moderator/admin.

I'm not saying no but I think you need to spend enough time on design before starting building it to avoid all the flaws.

Agreed. :) That's part of the reason for this thread. The other reason is to figure out if such a thing would be useful anyway.

I also think any existing national board (like glocktalk) could make their existing classifieds much more useful by
1. requiring sellers to put their state code in the title and enforcing it by deleting posts that violate the rule and
2. allowing users to search the classifieds by state code (instead of having a 3 or 4 letter minimum search word)

I agree and I've long wished for that exact thing, but I don't see these sites doing that. Moreover, they are forums with a classified system "shoe-horned in". A system built from the ground up, similar to gunbroker for example, to be classifieds, would give much more flexibility for search terms.

Example: imagine a feature where you can sign up to be alerted everytime someone comes from your state and posts a classified with the term "M1A" in the headline. You would get an email instantly. That'd be pretty cool.

[Disturbed]

As long as things stay on the up and up. I'm down for using such a site. Sounds like agreat idea.
Such a site could take off quick with a little support from this forum base. So if you do decide to jump on this litle project, be prepared for some usage.

[boomerang]

Agreed. :) That's part of the reason for this thread. The other reason is to figure out if such a thing would be useful anyway.

Right. I just wanted to be clear that I'm trying to poke holes in a constructive way. I think the site could be useful if done right. For example you want enough functionality for the person who is constantly trading different guns but it also has to be noob friendly enough to attract the person who wants to sell one gun. If you just cater to the hardcore horse traders, you're missing a lot of the market.

Example: imagine a feature where you can sign up to be alerted everytime someone comes from your state and posts a classified with the term "M1A" in the headline. You would get an email instantly. That'd be pretty cool.

Yes it would.

[drw]

Right. I just wanted to be clear that I'm trying to poke holes in a constructive way.

Yes, definitely! That's exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

For example you want enough functionality for the person who is constantly trading different guns but it also has to be noob friendly enough to attract the person who wants to sell one gun. If you just cater to the hardcore horse traders, you're missing a lot of the market.

Agreed completely.

[The Annoyed Man]

I own a website design business, and I have a couple of questions:

1. What kind of software are you contemplating using, or is this something where you're going to write the scripts and build the relational database yourself, and using which scripting engine and database?

2. If it is something you're going to develop on your own, have you considered the possibility of licensing the application to others for other kinds of uses (classic car sales, for instance)?

[drw]

1. What kind of software are you contemplating using, or is this something where you're going to write the scripts and build the relational database yourself, and using which scripting engine and database?

Yes, I'm contemplating writing it from the ground up using Linux, Apache, MySQL and PHP. I've been a programmer for 20 years and a web developer for over 10 years and have written several hundred thousand lines of code. I have built 3 websites that each get over a million unique visitors per month. I'm not saying this to brag at all (that's not the kind of person I am, hopefully) but to say that I can do this and probably can do it very well.

2. If it is something you're going to develop on your own, have you considered the possibility of licensing the application to others for other kinds of uses (classic car sales, for instance)?

I hadn't considered it, but I don't see why not.

[Boxerrider]

Have you seen/used this site?

http://www.texasguntrader.com/index.php

It's arranged by location instead of firearm type but I think it is a pretty decent, Texas-only service.
One of the things I find irritating about Gunbroker is dealers with high reserves posting the same gun over & over hoping for a sucker to bite. I'm not contesting their right to ask $5000 for a Red Ryder for a broken stock, but it shouldn't be done in such volume that it limits the efficiency of the entire process.

[drw]

Have you seen/used this site?

http://www.texasguntrader.com

It's arranged by location instead of firearm type but I think it is a pretty decent, Texas-only service.

It's in my rotation of sites that I keep tabs on. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but it has the feel of a ghost town. There are very few classifieds posted and a bare minimum of features. Their privacy policy probably gives many people too many concerns. There are too many ads, many of them not even gun related. They require you to submit your email address (that's reasonable) but also your physical address. They log IP addresses, as well. These privacy issues are unacceptable to many people, including myself.

One of the things I find irritating about Gunbroker is dealers with high reserves posting the same gun over & over hoping for a sucker to bite. I'm not contesting their right to ask $5000 for a Red Ryder for a broken stock, but it shouldn't be done in such volume that it limits the efficiency of the entire process.

I agree completely. Someone should be stepping in and taking action on that issue. Should I build this site I'm proposing, I would look for a long term solution to that problem.

[Rayden]

There's one concern that you have not addressed:

How to ensure that both the buyer and seller can be trusted. You can implement a feedback system like ebay or gunbroker etc., but how many guns an individual (not a dealer) has to transact before he/she can be trusted? Unlike a dealer, if I sell guns, it'll probably only be 1 or 2 per year. Even with good feedback for the 2 guns I sell this year, will it be enough?

A forum classified works because members built a reputation first through discussions, ans sometimes that online reputation is more important than trying to cheat a few dollars out of someone. Without discussions, can you draw users to keep coming back just to see what's on sale initially when the user base is low?

Those are just a few things to keep in mind.

[drw]

Great points and questions, Rayden.

How to ensure that both the buyer and seller can be trusted. You can implement a feedback system like ebay or gunbroker etc., but how many guns an individual (not a dealer) has to transact before he/she can be trusted? Unlike a dealer, if I sell guns, it'll probably only be 1 or 2 per year. Even with good feedback for the 2 guns I sell this year, will it be enough?

A good ebay-type feedback system is a must, of course. Would 2 feedbacks per year be enough? That's up to the buyer to decide. I do believe that it would make sense to allow anybody to post feedback about anybody else, so if, for example, someone who I have bought from in the past, or who I knew personally, was up there selling a firearm, I would like the chance to put my name on the line by posting a positive review for him.

So, it wouldn't be like you only get one review for each sale you make. I would see it as a more fluid reputation kind of thing.

A forum classified works because members built a reputation first through discussions, ans sometimes that online reputation is more important than trying to cheat a few dollars out of someone.

I agree, but I am willing to bet that there is a sizable group of people out there who would like to buy and sell without having to invest a lot of time into becoming a member of a forum-based community just to be able to sell a gun or two. This system would enable them to sell their firearms (thus providing more firearms for us to buy!!)

Without discussions, can you draw users to keep coming back just to see what's on sale initially when the user base is low?

Excellent features would draw people back. One feature I had in mind, as I briefly mentioned above, is email alerts. But they would work even better than you imagine. You specify your alert preferences, and the system would email you instantly when a new item was posted matching criteria such as:

1) The zipcode of the for-sale item is within XX miles of your own zipcode.
Thus you limit your search to your geographic region, for example Houston or Dallas.

2) The keywords present ("M1A", "Ruger LCP","etc").

3) Or, omit the keywords and get notified on every new firearm within your zipcode radius.

Signing up for an email alert enables you to not have to load up the homepage every morning and every evening just to see if anything is new in your area. Thus, for the sellers, they can be assured that when they post an item for sale, everybody that is signed up in their area will automatically be notified.

[Stupid]

i am sure you know about this. any successful project/business, technology is just about 30%, if that.

what you are proposing is basically a fancier version of craigslist, which is actually free. Thinking from project management point of view, what are your primary objectives besides having a place that you can trade guns? what are the issues (shortcoming of other websites) that you plan to address?