RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

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frankie_the_yankee
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RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#1

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

Look at this garbage. This is what things are like in RI. I posted this on the CRAL RI forum as well.

http://www.projo.com/ri/burrillville/co ... 7fbfd.html
By Mark Reynolds

Journal Staff Writer

BURRILLVILLE — A security guard was removed from his assignment at Zambarano Hospital after he allegedly fired his 9 mm pistol during an encounter with a knife-wielding intruder Sunday evening.

Todd Brown, 37, of Warwick, told the police the man fled the hospital grounds after he fired a single shot at him inside a vacant building, state police Maj. Stephen O’Donnell said yesterday as authorities continued to look for the intruder.

Although investigators still had questions to answer, it appeared that Brown’s account corresponded with other reports from the scene, O’Donnell said, noting that a second security guard had heard the tussle inside the building.

The incident raised other questions about compliance with a hospital policy that prohibits weapons on the campus.

The guard’s private security company is supposed to keep its employees from carrying weapons on the Zambarano campus, said Laurie Petrone, a spokeswoman for the facility’s overseer, the Rhode Island Department of Mental Health, Retardation & Hospitals.


The North Providence company, Industrial Security and Investigators, was apprised of the policy during the bidding phase of its negotiations with MHRH, Petrone said.

The hospital informed the company and its staff of the policy a second time before the guards started working under the contract last week, Petrone said.

At the direction of the hospital’s administrator, Paul Despres, the security company was informed a third-time yesterday, said Petrone.

“We have their assurances that there will be no guns on the campus going forward,� she said.
So let me get this straight. A security guard confronts and runs off a knife-wielding intruder, and the hospital's main concern is that the guard was carrying a gun? Doesn't it occur to these morons what might have happened to the guard if he had not been carrying a gun? Would they confront the knife wielding intruder themselves? (Of course not. That's why they hired guards, right?)

And it seems that they are now serving notice in no uncertain terms that any armed intruders who may enter the campus in the future can be confident that they will encounter no armed resistance to whatever they might do.

Hmmmmm........ This is a mental hospital, right? So one might assume that its past and current residents include people who are seriously mentally ill.

So aren't these people who are more likely to pull a "Cho" and just show up one day blasting away and killing as many people as possible?

Declaring the campus to be a gun free zone sure makes it easier for one of these disturbed people to carry out such a scheme.
The incident involving Brown was first reported to the state police around 8:15 p.m. Sunday.

A hospital dispatcher reported suspicious activity, including flickering lights in a vacant building on the hospital grounds, according to O’Donnell.

The dispatcher also reported that the hospital’s security personnel and the Burrillville police were aware of the situation.

About eight minutes later, the hospital telephoned again and reported that a weapon had been fired, O’Donnell said.

Brown, who was the supervisor of security personnel at the hospital, later told the police he had gone into the abandoned building and encountered a slender man who stood about 6 feet tall and wore dark jeans, a gray-hooded sweatshirt and white, dirty sneakers, O’Donnell said.

During the altercation, the man fell down a set of stairs and came back up wielding a knife, he said.

At that point, Brown fired, O’Donnell said.
So what's the problem? The only problem I can see is that it appears that he missed. Maybe he needs to get himself a Glock and have Truglo sights installed on it.
The guard told the police he thought he had hit the intruder, but investigators did not find any blood or other evidence of such an injury, O’Donnell said.

Investigators did not recover the rusty knife described by Brown, he said.

The intruder fled toward Route 100 after the encounter. Also, the hospital had telephoned the police earlier on Sunday to report the presence of a vagrant on the property.

O’Donnell described the state police investigation as a standard response to any incident involving a gunshot under such circumstances.

“Any time anybody fires a firearm we’re going to inquire as to what happened and why,� he said.

A person can fire a gun justifiably to protect him or herself from an “imminent threat� of severe bodily harm or death or to protect another person from the same threat, O’Donnell said.

An attacker armed with a knife represents such a threat, he said.
Well, at least the state police major seems to understand the reality of the situation. Not surprising. By the nature of their profession, cops need to live in the real world. The major obviously had no problem picturing himself confronting some scumbag armed with a knife. And he knows what he might well have done. Still, it's good to see a high ranking cop articulating accurate information as to the legality of the use of deadly force, and having it accurately recounted in a news report.
Brown is the only security guard carrying a weapon Sunday night, O’Donnell said, adding that the company allows its supervisors to carry weapons.

Brown has a permit for his gun and has met the qualifications necessary for carrying a pistol as a security guard.

No patients and employees at the hospital were hurt and the hospital was operating under its regular visiting hours yesterday.

Petrone did not identify the guard by name, but she confirmed that he would not work on either of the Eleanor Slater Hospital’s two campuses in Burrillville and Cranston as the state police finish their investigation.

mreynold@projo.com
The thing that frosts me about something like this is that the high level administrators who set these policies make a ton of money. Well into six figures. For that kind of money, should we expect clearer thinking from them?

And wouldn't we expect mental health professionals to possess a quality known as "empathy"? How is it that they cannot picture what they are expecting unarmed guards to do? How is it that they cannot imagine, even after it happens, what it is like to confront a knife wielding intruder who just might kill you if he thinks he needs to?

At a minimum, I would have expected the administrators to take this incident on as a "teachable moment" and teach themselves a few things that they may have overlooked in setting the original policy.

But I guess heavy six figure salaries just aren't enough to get people who might have the intelligence, critical thinking skills, and empathy, to enable them to do that.

Either that, or, this being RI they just might be someone's inbred brother or sister in law who got the job because they had the right pals.

Wait until they retire and y'all get to pay their fat pensions as long as they live.
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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#2

Post by TexaNurse »

Well, I think the issue they are trying to bring to light was that he was NOT supposed to be carrying a firearm while working. The other issue is that he fired and possibly missed. I don't know how this particular hospital is set up, but most hospitals have oxygen running through pipeline throughout the building to provide oxygen to patients in their respective rooms. My concern here is that IF that bullet were to penetrate the wall and hit that pipe, well, I don't think I would want to be in that vicinity.

Besides, he is only on temporary suspension until the investigation is done. They do the same to police officers when they fire their weapons. They just want to piece everything together and maybe let this fiasco die out for a bit. If the security guard did EVERYTHING he was able to do right, then he stands a chance at going back to work.

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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#3

Post by dukalmighty »

I know that here in Texas it is illegal to carry a weapon in the behavioural health buildings,they do not want any patients to possibly access a firearm and either commit suicide or shoot other people
It is said that if you line up all the cars in the world end-to-end, someone would be stupid enough to try to pass them

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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#4

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

TexaNurse wrote: Well, I think the issue they are trying to bring to light was that he was NOT supposed to be carrying a firearm while working.
Sure. But what I am saying is that the policy that forbids him from carrying a firearm is seriously misguided, considering the range of possible threats.
TexaNurse wrote: The other issue is that he fired and possibly missed.
I don't really think this was on their radar screen.

Note that the encounter took place in a vacant building. So no bystanders, patients, or staff were at risk from stray bullets.
TexaNurse wrote: I don't know how this particular hospital is set up, but most hospitals have oxygen running through pipeline throughout the building to provide oxygen to patients in their respective rooms. My concern here is that IF that bullet were to penetrate the wall and hit that pipe, well, I don't think I would want to be in that vicinity.
This is a mental hospital. I don't know that they are equipped in any way like a hospital that treats physical ailments, performs surgery, etc. They may have oxygen in certain wards, but probably not everywhere.

Besides, oxygen is not flammable. It doesn't burn itself. So it doesn't represent the same type of fire hazard as a natural gas line or a hydrogen line, for instance.

What oxygen does do is cause other things, (building materials and almost anything) to burn more easily (i.e. ignite at a lower temperature) than they would in normal air. So in that sense, it does represent a type of fire hazard.

Now if a bullet pierced a natural gas line, I would get the heck out of there as fast as I could. Any spark and the gas ignites, producing a huge hot fire.

But if a bullet pierced an oxygen line, all that would happen is that oxygen gas (O2) would start coming out at full line pressure. Over time (some minutes) the concentration of oxygen in the room would rise to a point that a small spark form a thermostat or some similar device could trigger a fire. But the fire would involve other stuff in the room burning, not the oxygen. And the other stuff would not burn with anything like the ferocity of high pressure natural gas or hydrogen.

And the important thing is that unlike a natural gas pipe rupture, which could burst into a super hot fire instantly, the whole process takes minutes to develop. That gives you time to shut the flow off from the closest available valve.

So it wouldn't be a big deal.

And I do not think that that the availability of oxygen has the slightest thing to do with the hospital's policy. The administrators clearly have a reflexive "anti" attitude towards guns and people carrying guns. This mirrors the many debates that have taken place in RI over whether or not university police should be armed, even though many universities are located right in the middle of cities where armed street crime is common (about twice as common than here in the Austin area, FWIW).

I didn't read where the administrators complained that the guard missed, or that they were worried about a stray round piercing an oxygen line. All I read is that they didn't want the guards carrying guns.
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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#5

Post by Liberty »

TexaNurse wrote:Well, I think the issue they are trying to bring to light was that he was NOT supposed to be carrying a firearm while working. The other issue is that he fired and possibly missed. I don't know how this particular hospital is set up, but most hospitals have oxygen running through pipeline throughout the building to provide oxygen to patients in their respective rooms. My concern here is that IF that bullet were to penetrate the wall and hit that pipe, well, I don't think I would want to be in that vicinity.
Hmm, what would you expect to happen?
I would expect that pressures would be dropped, someone would hook up portable to oxygen to the patients that needed it. and some one would block off the leaking oxygen at its source. I can't think of a reason why it spontaneously combust or explode.
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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#6

Post by The Annoyed Man »

I'm with Frankie. O2 lines in the walls would not be an issue in a mental hospital, and it was an unused building. Industrial safety was not the management complaint, it was that a gun was carried and used by a security officer in an encounter with an armed bad actor. And, the management's attitude toward security is laughable. They obviously think that the sole purpose of the hospital security force is to observe and report, and in the meantime, they've got an armed bad guy running around hospital grounds, who obviously cares neither about what administrators think, nor what the laws may say. Well, if that's what they think, why have security at all? Literally anybody can "observe and report." They don't need a security force for that.

As to the safety of having guns around mentally ill patients, to me that is a non-issue. Mental patients are usually segregated anyway according to the degree of their instabilities. The violently psychotic are not freely roaming around the hospital grounds - and I'll wager that this was the case in RI. If such patients are restricted to an area where their freedom to move about is heavily controlled, then it is a simple matter for an armed officer to disarm and secure the weapon before entering that area - much as an LEO would before entering a jail or prison block.
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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#7

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

Liberty wrote: Hmm, what would you expect to happen?
I would expect that pressures would be dropped, someone would hook up portable to oxygen to the patients that needed it. and some one would block off the leaking oxygen at its source. I can't think of a reason why it spontaneously combust or explode.
Yup.
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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#8

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

The Annoyed Man wrote: As to the safety of having guns around mentally ill patients, to me that is a non-issue. Mental patients are usually segregated anyway according to the degree of their instabilities. The violently psychotic are not freely roaming around the hospital grounds - and I'll wager that this was the case in RI. If such patients are restricted to an area where their freedom to move about is heavily controlled, then it is a simple matter for an armed officer to disarm and secure the weapon before entering that area - much as an LEO would before entering a jail or prison block.
Yup.
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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#9

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

To me, the worst thing about this whole incident is the amazing lack of empathy and the utter hypocrisy exhibited by the administrators.

They themselves would not dream of confronting a violent intruder, especially one that was armed. Too risky and messy for them I'm sure. So they hire people for what, compared to what they make, amounts to very little money and expect them to do this messy, risky job.

Then, from the comfort of their offices, they issue regulations preventing these people that they hired from carrying guns, even though they might encounter an armed threat. It's a pretty good bet that when they are dreaming these rules up, they are not putting themselves in the place of the guards and imagining what might be going through their heads when an armed threat pops up.

One of Snyder's observations is that people like this consider violence to be, in a way, beneath them. So they hire others, presumably not an enlightened as themselves, to deal with any violence that may break out around them while leaving them free to maintain their non-violent lifestyles and attitudes.

Many years ago, I heard a Harvard professor being interviewed on the program "Nightline". The topic was some new gun control proposal that was making the rounds at the time. And the professor at one point said something like this, "I have rejected violence from my life." And then he went on a bit as to what an accomplishment this was, and that if we could only teach others to orient their lives in a similar direction the world would be such a better place.

And, having recently read Snyder's "A Nation of Cowards", I remember thinking, "Boy! Wouldn't it be great if someone was trying to break in to this guy's house, and he calls the cops for help, and the cops say something like, "Gee Professor so-and-so. We saw you on Nightline the other night talking about how you had rejected violence from your life. And your words were so inspirational, they we decided that we too wanted to reject violence from our lives as well, so we could achieve the same moral plane as you have. Buit from what you have told us, confronting this guy is very likely to lead to violence, which both you and we all have agreed should be utterly rejected. So we're sorry, but we can't help you. But we do wish you the best of luck, and hope you can get through this possibly sticky situation as well as possible.""

I wonder what other decisions they make that suffer from the same lack of empathy for the people who are affected - patients and staff alike.

And for that we pay them a large 6 figure salary and provide them with a benefit package that is off the charts.
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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#10

Post by anygunanywhere »

Oxygen does not explode.

Oxygen is an oxidizer and vigorously supports combustion. When certain materials are exposed to oxygen concentrations above approximately 25% the combustion rate can dramatically increase.

The issue is the size of the oxygen lines in the wall and whether a high oxygen concentration could occur. I would expect that with normal ventilation if a bullet hit an O2 line the leak would be small enough that the concentration could be minimized.

An oxygen line hit by a bullet would not explode in flames. The materials used in oxygen service are very safe and suitable for the service.

The presence of oxygen or other gases and compounds used in the medical field should never be used as an excuse to prevent firearms in hospitals.

Individuals carrying cell phones and cigarette lighters in hospitals are much more dangerous than firearms around material leaks.

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#11

Post by bpet »

Hmmmm! Wonder how many volunteers the security company will have to work at that hospital.

Also wonder how the Administrator will react when he can't find any private security companies willing to work his facility and he has to depend on the local PD to take care of this type of situation. From what I understand from reading FTYs post, the police were notified and aware of the situation but had no one present during the time of the altercation. Oh my! Surprise, surprise, surprise!
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#12

Post by melkor41 »

Agreed!

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#13

Post by old farmer »

morn' :tiphat:

(UTMB at Galv. Hospital) TDC Officer do not carry weopons in the general population. Gun are only in secure areas of the prison. I have worked with TDC officer for 25 years, security and safety in the hospital is ongoing risk assessment. Every item within arm length of a inmate is a weapon...this includes staff. Inmate plus captived staff equals locked door by TDC Officer. A gun only increases risk. This is the policy of TDC. It equals captive staff equal dead staff. :shock: The inmate has no power by having a captive. :fire Mental health admin normaly follow this plan. :confused5 Just do't check the staff parking lot. :fire :txflag:
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#14

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

old farmer wrote:morn' :tiphat:

(UTMB at Galv. Hospital) TDC Officer do not carry weopons in the general population. Gun are only in secure areas of the prison. I have worked with TDC officer for 25 years, security and safety in the hospital is ongoing risk assessment. Every item within arm length of a inmate is a weapon...this includes staff. Inmate plus captived staff equals locked door by TDC Officer. A gun only increases risk. This is the policy of TDC. It equals captive staff equal dead staff. :shock: The inmate has no power by having a captive. :fire Mental health admin normaly follow this plan. :confused5 Just do't check the staff parking lot. :fire :txflag:
I have no problem with prison type protocols for the possession and handling of firearms in those parts of the facility where they may be necessary. The protocols you describe appear to be perfectly reasonable to me, and in line with what I would term common practice for such facilities.

But that's not the issue here. The hospital administrators have banned firearms completely from both campuses.

I do not think you will find a prison or jail anywhere in the country where there are absolutely no firearms allowed. Instead, there are areas, blocks, etc. where guns are not permitted, and there are other areas where they are permitted.

Situations can develop where an armed response is required. If there are no armed personnel present to make such a response, it usually results in innocent people getting injured or killed in the time it takes to get armed police on the scene.

Sometimes a lot of them.
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Re: RI rolls out the welcome mat for scum

#15

Post by TexaNurse »

I wouldn't expect an explosion. But that O2 is under high pressure so that it can be delivered to highest part of the building. You puncture it and you could be taking O2 away from somebody. That O2 line could be going to surgery, or the ER, or maybe even a cardiac floor. Thats what I meant that I don't to be in the vicinity. Because do you want to be the person responsible for that?

But, like it was said, it is a mental hospital. So that shouldn't be an issue at then.
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