AR optics -dual or dual purpose?

[flechero]

I may have found the rifle, assuming I can settle on optics.

I need some advice/feedback on holographics... I like the simplicity and design idea of the eotech hybrids with swing away magnifier (like this: https://www.eotechgear.com/holographic-hybrid-sight-ii) but my hang up is my own eyesight. A few years ago I wouldn't have hesitated but I'm not sure I can shoot distance with a 3x fixed these days. I'm looking for a 0-300ish yds set up.

I had considered a modest traditional scope and a 45 degree red dot option but it feels clunky in my mind.

I'm trying to buy one nice rifle vs 2 lesser ones.

Thoughts from other aging eyes or users of similar set ups?

[carlson1]

I have this one on the rifle that I use for further away and it works real good for me. I was able to get one on their weekend specials and it wasn’t as much as it advertised now.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/vortex- ... mount.html

[jb2012]

Sounds like a LPVO would be your best option. Carlson referenced a good one that won’t break the bank. At close distances on 1 power it will operate similar to a red dot, however you will be able to magnify the picture for farther shots. The only downfalls are weight and also eye relief/cheek weld. With most red dots the point of impact will follow the dot, with a scope, you will need much more consistent alignment.

[Paladin]

I like EOTECHs and have a number of them.

The XPS2-0 is fast and easy to hit with event at distance with my middle aged eyes. While I think the ACOG's are better for distance work, the EOTECH is probably still better than most shooters at 300-400 yards (without magnification).

[Charles L. Cotton]

I like EOTECHs and have a number of them.

The XPS2-0 is fast and easy to hit with event at distance with my middle aged eyes. While I think the ACOG's are better for distance work, the EOTECH is probably still better than most shooters at 300-400 yards (without magnification).

I agree. Eotechs are as near to being parallax-free as you can get. Red dots are not, regardless what they claim. I like red dots and I have four, but parallax will depend upon cheek-weld with rifles and consistent presentation with handguns.

Chas.

[flechero]

I like EOTECHs and have a number of them.

The XPS2-0 is fast and easy to hit with event at distance with my middle aged eyes. While I think the ACOG's are better for distance work, the EOTECH is probably still better than most shooters at 300-400 yards (without magnification).

Good to know, is the 1moa dot still pretty easy to pick out at 300yds?

[Paladin]

I like EOTECHs and have a number of them.

The XPS2-0 is fast and easy to hit with event at distance with my middle aged eyes. While I think the ACOG's are better for distance work, the EOTECH is probably still better than most shooters at 300-400 yards (without magnification).

Good to know, is the 1moa dot still pretty easy to pick out at 300yds?

Works for me for silhouette shooting. The outer ring helps keep you centered and the vertical marks help keep your rifle pointed vertical.

At 500 yards the dot tends to obscure the target but I can still get decent groups.

[The Annoyed Man]

I like EOTECHs and have a number of them.

The XPS2-0 is fast and easy to hit with event at distance with my middle aged eyes. While I think the ACOG's are better for distance work, the EOTECH is probably still better than most shooters at 300-400 yards (without magnification).

Good to know, is the 1moa dot still pretty easy to pick out at 300yds?

The size of the dot doesn’t change with holographic or red dot optics—regardless of distance—therefore it is always easy to pick out. What DOES change is how much of the target is obscured by the dot at varying distances. A 1 MOA dot that covers a 1" circle at 100 yards, will cover a 3" circle at 300 yards, and a 5" circle at 500 yards. So, assuming that both you and your weapon are capable of 1 MOA or better, then at 500 yards, a 1 MOA dot is completely unsuitable for placing a round inside a 3" circle, because you can’t see where the circle's edges are EVEN IF you’re capable of that kind of accuracy with that rifle.

RED DOT SIGHTS:
Generally speaking, I keep an RDS on anything most likely to be used inside of 100 yards, and a magnified optic on anything likely to be used beyond that. My HD SBR has an Aimpoint T2 micro with a 1 MOA dot on it. It is zeroed for 50 yards, which puts POI no more than 1.6" high of POA at 125 yards, and nor more than 3" low at about 245 yards. This turns the RDS into a point and click interface; so basically, as long as I can see the target, I’m good to go out to 245 yards, and the round should hit (assuming both I and the rifle are capable of this accuracy) within a 5" circle. Within that range, the 1 MOA dot does NOT obscure the target circle, so that’s a non-issue for me. The BIGGER issue is, do I need to be shooting whatever it is when it’s 245 yards away from me? The objective answer is, "not unless I’m actually hunting with this rifle", and if that’s the answer, then I have better hunting options.

MAGNIFIERS:
My wife's carbine setup used to use an EOTech and a 3x magnifier on a flip-to-side mount. The reason for the EOTech is that she’s right handed but left eye dominant, so she shoots lefty. The problem is that she’s not even close to ambidextrous, so while this is bit clumsy for her, she can make it work. But she basically can’t figure out how to use a magnifying scope at all. Even my Aimpoint doesn’t work that well for her due to its mild parallax. So while the unmagnified EOTech works well for her, adding the magnifier discombobulates her, and off came the magnifier. Back when the EOTech + magnifier was on MY carbine, I rarely ever used the magnifier either, and it just adds a lot of extra weight to the all-up weight of carbine and optic. Plus, the magnifier has a very short eye relief, and it throws a lot of parallax back into the system. I don’t use mine anymore.

FIXED POWER OPTIC:
My favorite optic for my general purpose carbine is a 4x32 ACOG (TA31-F). It’s not parallax-free, and it does have a short eye relief, but by keeping the stock collapsed to the first "click", my eye just naturally goes to the eye-box, and none of that bothers me. Also, the recoil from an AR is small enough that the short eye relief doesn’t matter. The glass is very high quality, the reticle is useful, and the overall weight is a good deal less than that of any of the low-power variable power optics I own. Plus, if you shoot with both eyes open, the reticle functions sort of like a red dot for CQB purposes. The various, admittedly less expensive, fixed power alternatives from Burris, Primary Arms, and others, have all of the shortcomings of the Trijicon ACOG, without any of the redeeming pluses. I used to own a Burris AR536, and that was replaced by the ACOG, which is just plain better.

VARIABLE LOW POWER SCOPES:
I own three.....four if you count a 2-10x32 Vortex Viper PST that’s on one of my .308 bolt guns. The two that are mounted to ARs are both in the 1-6x range. One is a FFP Primary Arms 1-6x ACSS Raptor with the chevron reticle, mounted on a 16" carbine. The other is a FFP 1-6.5x Bushnell Elite Tactical SMRS mounted on a 18" heavy barreled DMR/SPR. Of those two, I much prefer the ACSS Raptor reticle of the Primary Arms scope, which is truly useful. In fact, Trijicon has begun offering ACOGs with different variations of the ACSS reticles. I don’t see any substantive differences in the quality of the glass between those two. The third low power scope is a 1.5-5x33mm VX-R Leupold Scout scope I have mounted on a Marlin 336. It’s a great scope for the application I’m using it in, but I wouldn’t recommend it for an AR. The 4th scope I mentioned, the 2-10x Viper PST, I would absolutely recommend for any AR that was to be used either for long range target shooting, or longer range hunting. It is FFP, and uses their MRAD milling reticle. The elevation/windage turrets adjust in .1 mil increments, the glass is nice and clear, the warranty can’t be beat, and it’s reasonably priced for the class of optics it’s competing in.... but it’s not a cheap scope. Expenct to spend in the $800+ range.

A word about Maximum Point Blank Range (MPBR).... unless you’re really using a BDC or milling type of reticle to estimate range and holdovers, MPBR may be a far more useful way to shoot for a lot of people using either red dot optics, or scopes with plain duplex crosshairs. That’s how I sorted out the 1.5-5x33 scout scope on my Marlin. I used the excellent online JMB Ballistics trajectory calculator (https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi). By checking the MPBR option at the bottom of the form, inputting the radius of my desired target circle (3" for a 6" circle), and plugging in the actual velocity I obtained over a chronograph for my chosen load (2360 FPS for a 160 grain LEVERevolution FTX), I obtained a MPBR of 227 yards. In other words, I can count on my POI being no more than 3" above or below POA all the way out to 227 yards. At that range, that load is still pushing 1805 FPS and 1159 ft-lbs....plenty enough to kill a deer or hog....and all I’ve got to do is put the crosshairs where I want them.

The point is that this technique is just as valid as depending on some magic formula decided by the Army or the Marine Corps for deciding how to zero your RDS or holographic sight, and could be more useful in the real world for the application for which you intend to use the rifle. In the case of my SBR, I went ahead and used the Santose 50 yard modified battle zero because it made perfect sense for that rifle/RDS setup and its intended use. But don’t feel like you need to be tied to those kinds of formulas. Use a ballistics app, or check out the JMB online calculator (linked above), and you may well come up with a solution that is better for you in the REAL world.

I hope that some of this helps. BTW, it’s worth nothing that I took the ACOG off of my 20" A4 replica, and remounted the rear carry handle iron sight. It works great, despite my Mark 52/67 eyeballs.

[flechero]

I hope that some of this helps.

Very much so, thanks for taking the time to type all that out! You gave me a few things to think about that I hadn't considered and validated a few others.

I was able to handle a rifle with the eotech in question this evening and like that I'm able to run both eyes open without any challenge.

Lots to consider!

[jason812]

How about something like - for example - a 1-4× or 1-6x scope with a dot or chevron reticle which is illuminated?

I have a Primary Arms 1-6x on my shorty .300 AR - I keep it on 1x but can magnify if needed, and the reticle is similar to an ACOG chevron (etched onto the glass and is capable of being illuminated).

That was my thought too. Sig or Leupold have just an illuminated red dot plus cross hairs, which is what I prefer.

[Bob Wolff]

I have a Vortex Razor hD (1-6x). There are several reticals available. The reason I lke it is the center red dot is visible in the bright summer Texas sun.
I use a cantelever LaRue mount that is .5 inches higher than normal.This allows me to not have to have to scrunch up my neck to get agood cheek weld and have the optic centered on me (i.e. tune the optic to the shooter). I shoot 3 gun with this and with a 25 yd zero is great. I have shot out to 500 with this.
This optic has a nice big eyebox and a good field of view

[flechero]

How about something like - for example - a 1-4× or 1-6x scope with a dot or chevron reticle which is illuminated?

I have a Primary Arms 1-6x on my shorty .300 AR - I keep it on 1x but can magnify if needed, and the reticle is similar to an ACOG chevron (etched onto the glass and is capable of being illuminated).

Still considering this but haven't been able to handle an ACOG in person. I wish there was a range with each of the sight systems where you could run a few mags before dropping before you buy! I'd pay to play!

[The Annoyed Man]

How about something like - for example - a 1-4× or 1-6x scope with a dot or chevron reticle which is illuminated?

I have a Primary Arms 1-6x on my shorty .300 AR - I keep it on 1x but can magnify if needed, and the reticle is similar to an ACOG chevron (etched onto the glass and is capable of being illuminated).

Still considering this but haven't been able to handle an ACOG in person. I wish there was a range with each of the sight systems where you could run a few mags before dropping before you buy! I'd pay to play!

If you have any plans to come up to the DFW area any time soon...before you buy an optic, contact me. We can go to a range, and I can let you shoot ARs side by side with a Trijicon ACOG, a Primary Arms 1-6x ACSS w/ chevron, a Aimpoint T2 micro, and an EOTech. Perhaps that will help you finalize your decision.