Traveling In A Motorboat

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

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srothstein
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#31

Post by srothstein »

TX_Jim wrote:I looked up the GC Code Construction Act 311.11 and it does not specifically state the order in which to define a word or phrase as you state. It does say use the common usage or the technical definition or the legislative definition should be construed accordingly.
Sorry, I cannot give a reference to the order specifically. It was the way i was taught in the academy. I think it was based on case law rulings, but I cannot say for sure. The trick to it is to see if the word or phrase has acquired a technical meaning by law to go by instead of the common meaning. It is easy when the word is specifically defined for that phrase, but a little harder in cases like this.
Anyway, that being said, I followed your logic and found that Title 10, chapter 49, does in fact contain a definition for motor vehicle. My problem with this logic is that 49.01 says “Definitions� “in this chapter� and then says that motor vehicle takes on the meaning from 32.34 . I would have to argue that 49.01 “in this chapter� limits the scope of those definitions to that chapter and does not imply that they should be used in any other context. Am I way off base here?
No, it is an easy thing to get confused on at first glance, but really easy to understand when you think about it.

Assume there is a term we need defined. In one chapter, that term was used. If it was the first time they used that term, they probably defined it and used the expression "in this chapter". Later on, if they used the phrase again, they probably referred to the first definition instead of redefining it. If they needed it to mean something different that time, then they redefine it in full.

But this shows that the term now has a technical meaning by law. While it is only used for that chapter, the code construction act tells us to use the technical meaning if there is one. So, when the term is used in another part of the code and not defined, we now know the technical meaning of the term under the law.

Of course, the problem is when the term is defined in different ways in different parts of the code. This is why i was told to use that order. It gives the closest legal meaning from a section that should be similar in general usage.
Steve Rothstein

srothstein
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#32

Post by srothstein »

Keith B wrote:
srothstein wrote: Thus a boat is not going to be considered a motor vehicle.

I will not attempt to answer the houseboat question since there are conflicting definitions in the code, and I could make a good argument either way. I would go with it being legal as a habitation, though i can see arguments the other way.
I think a houseboat would be considered a recreational vehicle and fall under the 'premises' guideline only.
I am not sure I agree with you but I think it would work. Under the definition of premises in 46.035, it must be a building. A building is any structure intended for occupation or habitation. Since a houseboat is not natural object, it is a structure. By design, it was intended for use as a habitation, thus making it a building and premises.

Note that this is taking the definition of building from Chapter 30, though.

An argument against a houseboat being a premise is the definition of premises in Section 46.02(a)(2). Here it says it includes recreational vehicles, but defines them as motor vehicles or vehicles designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. A houseboat is not a motor vehicle, though it is a vehicle. It is not designed to be towed though, so it is not a recreational vehicle under this definition. The argument to use to counter this logic is that this definition says premises "includes". This is not an exclusive definition. It may also include other things, like houseboats. This is similar to last year traveling presumption. It was not a definition, but one example of the term.

I think the court would look on a houseboat as your premises, but I am not 100% sure of it. It is definitely a habitation for burglary purposes, though.
Steve Rothstein

aguyindallas
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#33

Post by aguyindallas »

gmckinl wrote:Certainly NOT on any Corps of Engineer lake! There are 31 of them listed for TX. The listing can be found here:

http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/visito ... m?state=TX

Select "print friendly" if you want to see the full list at one time. As to the boundaries of the Corps property, you'll have to figure it out... I never have.

Example, Lake Lewisville is a COE lake. No CHL, nor even possession of a handgun, there period. What about in the campgrounds such as Hidden Cove Park? Am I legal sitting around the campfire on the park grounds? Am I legal just having one in my vehicle/RV? Since you can't have it in the boat, can you leave it in your car parked at the boat ramp?

There have been previous discussions on this subject here on this board. Reading them may give you some insight, or just even more confusion and questions. Good luck.

Interesting point here....the Hidden Cove Park/Marina is operated by the City of The Colony. I would venture to say that they cannot prohibit CHL Carry on this land. I will also confirm with you that while on Lake Lewisville or any other COE lake...having a handgun is no bueno. Keep in mind...if you are in Hidden Cove Park....DO NOT get caught at the waterline with a concealed handgun....by definition (depending on the water elevation) you could be on COE land...even though you are not in the water.

My house is ON Lake Lewisville, in Little Elm, and we launch our boat at Hidden Cove very regularly.

aguyindallas
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#34

Post by aguyindallas »

TX_Jim wrote:
seamusTX wrote:
TX_Jim wrote:Do they (LE) have the right to board and conduct safety searches...i.e. counting up lifevest and etc. And if during that search or safety stop...they find a firearm....would it still be considered inadmissiable?
I have no idea.

- Jim
LOL....me either.

There has to be some boat owners out there that can weigh in on this.

Yes, they can board your vessel for the purpose of a safety inspection (fire extinguisher, flotation devices, etc...). If while doing so, they find a firearm, you will be found in violation. I am sure it would be admissable.

Think about it this way (in states where CHL is not legal). If you had a gun in your glove box of your car or perhaps on the seat. You get pulled over for no seat belt, headlight out (whatever the case is). During the course of the LEO interviewing you they see the gun on the seat, OR when you open your glove box to get your ins/reg, they see the gun. That is a crime. They didnt have to search your car to see that. It was obvious.

While I would most certainly prefer to have my gun with me on the boat, its a crime...certainly not worth the risk. The game wardens and Denton County SO patrol the lake very frequently.

Renegade

#35

Post by Renegade »

aguyindallas wrote:
Think about it this way (in states where CHL is not legal). If you had a gun in your glove box of your car or perhaps on the seat. You get pulled over for no seat belt, headlight out (whatever the case is). During the course of the LEO interviewing you they see the gun on the seat, OR when you open your glove box to get your ins/reg, they see the gun. That is a crime. They didnt have to search your car to see that. It was obvious.
Except we are talking about lakes which are Federal property. Thus carrying a gun on Federal property is subject to Federal law, not Texas Law which is what a GW is enforcing.

mr surveyor
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#36

Post by mr surveyor »

has this thread morphed into a discussion of carrying a firearm in a boat only on COE lakes in Texas, or does it pertain to discussion of all waterways in Texas?


edit to add: I'm really curious as I do spend a bit of time on Texas lakes, very few of which have anything to do with COE.
It's not gun control that we need, it's soul control!

srothstein
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#37

Post by srothstein »

As far as I understand, the question is still open on boats on state waters, but on federal waters (mostly COE lakes) the answer is confirmed as NO.

As for whether or not you can be stopped and checked, the law (Parks and Wildlife Code) says:
§ 31.124. INSPECTION OF VESSELS.
(a) In order to enforce the provisions of this chapter, an enforcement officer may stop and board any vessel subject to this chapter and may inspect the boat to determine compliance with applicable provisions.

(b) An officer boarding a vessel shall first identify himself by presenting proper credentials.

(c) The operator of a vessel required by this chapter to hold a certificate of number aboard the vessel shall show the certificate to the officer on demand, and failure to do so constitutes a violation of this chapter.

(d) No person operating a boat on the water of this state may refuse to obey the directions of an enforcement officer when the officer is acting under the provisions of this chapter.

(e) The safety of the vessel shall always be the paramount consideration of an arresting officer.

(f) If an enforcement officer determines that a vessel and its associated equipment is being used in violation of this chapter or of any regulation or standard issued thereunder so as to create an especially hazardous condition, he may direct the operator to return to mooring, and the vessel may not be used until the condition creating the violation is corrected.
As with many other points where the law allows a search, I am curious how it would stand up to a challenge to the SCOTUS level under the 4th Amendment.
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boomerang
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#38

Post by boomerang »

From talking to sailors it sounds like the Coast Guard doesn't have a problem with firearms on board. If I owned a boat I would probably avoid COE lakes when possible and maybe get a locking container that doesn't look like a gun safe.

mr surveyor
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#39

Post by mr surveyor »

it is an interesting discussion that a lot of us probably could benefit from a greater understanding. I never spent much time on COE project waterways, but I have in the past been known to be on the water on some NE Tx lakes at least 3 times per week.
It's not gun control that we need, it's soul control!

Renegade

#40

Post by Renegade »

I am still confused where Texas Peace Officer get their authority to enforce Texas laws on Federal property. Can GWs enter Fort Hood?

On another matter, how far off-shore does Texas Peace Officer (Game Warden) allowed to go to enforce law?

Educational questions here only, I have no beef with GWs.

srothstein
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#41

Post by srothstein »

Renegade,

It depends on the base and how it was created. Some military bases are what is called concurrent jurisdiction. These are under both military and civilian rule, so the peace officers go there. Others are what is called exclusive jurisdiction and only military or federal personnel can enforce the law there. I don't know what Ft. Hood is. Then, to throw more confustion into the mix, there is a federal law called the assimilation act, which lets military bases assimilate state laws so that they do not have to write all of their traffic rules and such.

On the off shore waters, I believe the state has the jurisdiction out to the seven mile limit that is US property, but I have never looked it up to be sure. I got that understanding from the way the gambling boats go out to international waters to avoid violating state gambling laws.
Steve Rothstein

mr surveyor
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#42

Post by mr surveyor »

Texas territorial waters extend to nine nautical miles ... unique amongst coastal states, but we were a sovereign nation at one time :smile:
It's not gun control that we need, it's soul control!

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casingpoint
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#43

Post by casingpoint »

It seems that up Nawth, a motorboat might actually be classified a motor vehicle:
http://www.courttv.com/trials/speer/102 ... ml?cnn=yes
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