What is Reliable Enough?

[Liberty]

Is this Magtech Ammo defensive ammo? I have been avoiding 115 gr ammo in my 9mm These days my range ammo is 124 gr NATO Winchester white box. I just doesn't feel the same or shoot the same as defensive ammo. I can't afford to practice exclusively with defensive ammo.

Put aside the Magtech for now.
Pick up a few boxes box of Winchester White Box NATO.
Let your wife shoot through these and see if she has any issues. If she has no issues after shooting a few boxes of this ammo we can safely blame the Magtech Ammo.
If Sig claims there is a problem with Magtech I wouldn't find it hard to blame the ammo.
Probably not a good idea to rely on discount brands of Ammo for self defense .. To be safe I would use what the LEO community uses.

[RPBrown]

Interesting....... I've never had an issue with Magtech ammo, in any pistol, in any caliber, in any platform. The thing is, you've got more than one potential issue going on, and that adds to the complexity of diagnosing the specific problem with your wife, with that pistol. But to answer your most basic question: NO, I would NOT want my wife to rely on this pistol for carry or home defense if the problem(s) cannot be eradicated. The flip side of that is that I don't try to dictate to my wife what she will or will not carry, without her agreement that she has problems or a lack of confidence in the gun. But that's just me.

It sounds to me like your wife might be limp-wristing the P938, which is initiating/exacerbating any potential ammo issues with the Magtech ammo. It may well be, as you suggest, that she is not properly releasing the slide when charging the gun, and "following" the slide home, causing a failure to go into battery; but if that is happening, then the gun shouldn't fire at all.....because if the slide isn't in battery, the firing pin shouldn't be able to reach the primer, right?

So while she may indeed be doing that with the slide, I don't think it has anything to do with the problem she's having with the other failures.

A basic pistol class would probably be a good idea for your wife. Tactical type training would be a waste of money if the instructor has to spend all of his/her time teaching your wife how to manage the most basic parts of the pistol's manual of arms. By all means, get some tactical-type training, but have her take a basic pistol class first.

I wanted to say something about the choice of a P938, which I hope won't ruffle the feathers of people who carry them. First let me say that I think it is a great little pistol. But I wanted to also say that I don't think it is the best platform for someone who may still be considered a novice shooter. This is just my opinion. My reasoning is this: the user interface is more complicated than a simple point-click. You have what is essentially a scaled down 1911. The option to carry cocked and locked, the manual thumb-safety, the light trigger pull all add up to a level of mechanical complexity that makes it unsuitable to a novice shooter, in my humble opinion. Then, add the fact that it is a small semiauto with a short 3" barrel and slide. Pretty much all pistols of those general dimensions have fairly stiff recoil springs that make it harder for smaller statured people to wrack the slide. That stiff recoil spring also makes it harder to pull the slide back far enough off its slide stop to "slingshot" it into battery. I believe that the reason people sometimes ride the slide forward like that is simply that they can't let go of it fast enough before the spring tension forces the slide forward.

Now, there are techniques for dealing with that for people who struggle with it. There are also tools specifically made for assisting someone with wracking a slide. But another thing to consider is (A) whether or not a 3" 9mm is the best choice for your wife; and (B) if it is, is the P938 the best choice for a 3" 9mm for your wife. My wife is not particularly a "gun person", but she does own more than one, and she carries daily. She owns a G19 and a G43, and a S&W 642. She has also previously owned a Khar CW9. When her CHL first came in, she started with carrying her 642 because it was easy to understand: just aim, and pull the trigger ........and it was very safe to carry because of the long heavy trigger pull. The problem was that the same heavy trigger which made it safe to carry, also made it very unpleasant for her to practice with it. She really likes her G19, which she shoots well, and which is easier for her to wrack the slide, but it doesn't really fit her carry styles (purse, or belly band). So she carries her G43, which she shoots relatively well, and which she is still able to manage the slide, even though it is more difficult than her G19.

The thing is, there is a whole raft of subcompact 9mm polymer framed pistols that are safe, easy to shoot, and available in either double or single stack configurations........ Kahr PM9/CM9, Glock 43 and 26, S&W M&P Shield, S&W M&P Beretta Nano, Springfield XDS9, etc.... and they are all "revolver-like" for their simplicity of operation. It might be worth looking at some of them to compare recoil spring tension to see if they are easier to wrack than the P938, and I'll bet they are less ammo sensitive. But even if they are not, they are in all probability easier to use from the perspective of the manual of arms, and external mechanical simplicity. It may turn out that the P938 is still the best choice for her, but at least you'll have done the research. My advice is that you let her choose the gun, regardless of your own personal preferences. She's the one who has to have confidence in it, even more so than your feelings in the matter, if it is to be her pistol.

TAM, I agree with everything you stated.

I am sure that I did have an issue with Magtech ammo. Was it a bad batch? Probably, since I used it in the past without indecent, but the issue was both in .45 and 9mm with me shooting and I am far from a novice. However, the more I read from the OP, I tend to think it may be a user issue. This was the same problem my wife had with the P938 before I inherited it and she went to the XD9. Like I said in an earlier topic, she had issues with racking the slide and releasing the slide on the XD. That is why at her request, we moved her to a revolver. At least now she feels confidant and comfortable carrying it and she is armed again. Sure, she has lost capacity going from 13 to 5 rounds but she can put those 5 rounds wherever she wants to

[The Annoyed Man]

Is this Magtech Ammo defensive ammo?

MOST of the Magtech I've fired has been hardball, with the exception of some .45 ACP and .44 Magnum JHPs. That said, I haven't shot any Magtech in a while, so maybe their QC has degraded or something? I don't currently have any on hand.

[Liberty]

Is this Magtech Ammo defensive ammo?

MOST of the Magtech I've fired has been hardball, with the exception of some .45 ACP and .44 Magnum JHPs. That said, I haven't shot any Magtech in a while, so maybe their QC has degraded or something? I don't currently have any on hand.

What I think is going on is that she might be limp wristing and a lower pressures caused by 115 gr. and possibly the Magtech ammo are aggravating the situation. I know little about Magtech, but it being an economy brand, and Sig admiting that there have been problems reported with it. I don't know much about the Sig she is using either, but some guns might like a little more oomf to cause a complete cycle. The defensive loads she is using is probably power enough.

I figure that most 9mm handguns were designed for 124 gr as a median. So that is what I shoot. Heavier subsonic have their olaces .. 115 might have better penetration ... I always though 115 was lighter than the optimal especially for target loads. Having said all this, I have shot a whole lot of 115 Winchester white box and cheap russian crap, and I have never had an issue with any of my guns, and I wouldn't hessitate to use 115 gr defensive rounds, if there wasn't anything affordable available.

[twomillenium]

It seems to me FTE would be more of the shooter than the ammo, unless it was a very light load. FTF can often be the pistol if it is picky about the head configuration of the ammo. That is why I got rid of my Walther, 15 years ago,(maybe they have improved since then). I use strictly store bought, but it seems to me the casings should be the same, no matter the brand. (I don't know) If it were the pistols fault then FTE should occur with any brand. If I am wrong, let me know why. I value the knowledge of others, especially on this forum.

[rotor]

Gun-Test.com tested the P938 Extreme and gave it a D rating. One of the problems was a broken extractor. Mar 2013 issue. Why not send it to Sig?

[Lena]

Honestly reliable enough, well I have many that have never ever had a problem, if I had to pick say 3 that I have the most confidence in they would be my daily carry Glock 32 357sig - Glock 19 (both 2nd gen) - my 25+ year old SIG 226 but I could add many more to this list, several 1911's etc. Over the years if I saw a problem gun I did not own it very long.

[Pawpaw]

I know you said you're having failure to extract problems, but that is usually every easily diagnosed as a problem with the extractor or it's spring.

It sounds more like you're having failure to eject problems. A failure to extract would mean the fired case is still in the chamber, blocking it from accepting the next round.

[FCH]

Thank you for all of the replies. You have given me a lot to think about and I have been thinking on it for several days. I've come to the conclusion that this reliability issue must be resolved. The gun is NOT reliable enough at this time. I think the situation is probably a combination of two or more of the following problems.

1. Ammo
2. Shooter
3. Gun

1. I found a source for Blazer Brass. This is one of the brands recommended by the Sig rep. I just ordered up 500 rounds. We'll see how this behaves.
2. If we are still having problems, we'll work on the shooter with some professional help. I do notice my wife has a higher failure rate than me.
3. If step 1 or 2 do not resolve the problem, we'll send the gun back to Sig.

[FCH]

Had a nice range trip today. Checked with one of the pros. He says the extractor looks good but when he fired both Magtech and Independence he had multiple FTEs. This pretty much eliminates 2. Shooter as the problem leaving:

1. Ammo

3. Gun

We will wait for the Blazer Brass (as recommended by the Sig). If the Ammo doe not resolve the problem, we'll send the gun back to Sig.

[Crash]

I believe that Jeff Cooper said that more than one failure in 1000 rounds was not good enough. I have an FNS-9 and have had one failure in 820 rounds using at least six different kinds of ammo, often mixed up in the magazines. I'll probably reach the 1000 round mark before the end of April and I don't expect any more failures. If I had had as many failures as you have, I'd either send it back to the manufacturer and/or buy something else--probably the latter.

Crash

[FCH]

We're still trying to work out the issues. Sig will take the gun back for servicing but they clearly think the problem is the ammo. We had a couple more people look at the gun. The FTEs seem to occur after the gun is warmed up by running several magazines in a row. Two "experts" have suggested an extreme cleaning. I'm going to soak the barrel and the extractor in Hoppes then in CLP and make another trip to the range.

I've gone so far as to buy another gun for my wife but she insists, this was her first gun and she wants it to keep it.

[Pawpaw]

I believe that Jeff Cooper said that more than one failure in 1000 rounds was not good enough.

Strange since he was such a 1911 fanatic. Sort of blows holes in some people's arguments that 1911s are inherently unreliable, doesn't it?

[Liberty]

I believe that Jeff Cooper said that more than one failure in 1000 rounds was not good enough.

Strange since he was such a 1911 fanatic. Sort of blows holes in some people's arguments that 1911s are inherently unreliable, doesn't it?

1 failure in a thousand is pretty lousy repeatability as far as I'm concerned. But Cooper had to settle for that to compensate for his beloved 1911. Also Cooper wasn't dealing with things like subcompacts, Kimber and Taurus.Yeah, overall its fair to say that some 1911s might reach the 1 per 1000 failure rate. Some people even believe that this is good enough.

[treadlightly]

I believe that Jeff Cooper said that more than one failure in 1000 rounds was not good enough.

Strange since he was such a 1911 fanatic. Sort of blows holes in some people's arguments that 1911s are inherently unreliable, doesn't it?

1 failure in a thousand is pretty lousy repeatability as far as I'm concerned. But Cooper had to settle for that to compensate for his beloved 1911. Also Cooper wasn't dealing with things like subcompacts, Kimber and Taurus.Yeah, overall its fair to say that some 1911s might reach the 1 per 1000 failure rate. Some people even believe that this is good enough.

One per thousand is a 0.1% failure rate, and not good enough.

Every 1911 I've ever had has gone past that. I don't shoot as much as I'd like, but over the years the reliability history builds up.

My Government Model was horrible when I first got it back in the Carter administration. One trip to a good gunsmith cured everything.

After having owned it 40+ years, the extractor broke about a year ago. As best I can remember that's the first malfunction I saw, post gunsmith.

There are definitely other guns than 1911's, though, and the 1911 is an old design - but I don't feel unarmed with one.