What is Reliable Enough?

[FCH]

I am trying to decide whether a gun is reliable enough to be my wife's EDC and/or our nightstand gun. The gun in question is a Sig P938. When we purchased the gun new, it had some issues. We sent it to Sig and they significantly improved its function. We are now almost a year and over 1,200 rounds later and having some issues. Here are some recent range reports.

Starting with a just cleaned and lubed gun, my wife fired 7 rounds of Hornady Critical Defense 115g with no problems. Then she fired about 50 rounds of Magtech 115g and had at least 7 Failure to Extract (FTE). Dropping the magazine and racking the slide always extracted the spent brass. A friend said it felt like the brass was kind of sticking while being extracted. He took the gun home and cleaned it with an "extreme" solvent that he said strips all fouling.

The next range trip, my wife and friend took turns firing another 50 rounds of Magtech. The failure rate was even worse, 8 or 9 FTEs. I called Sig and they said they had been having problems with Magtech and suggested I try some different ammo.

The next range trip, my wife fired 7 rounds of Hornady and 50 rounds of Perfecta 115g with no failures. I fired 14 rounds of Hornady, also with no failures.

Since I was buying the Magtech in 1000 round case lots, I dug into my stash for a couple of boxes from an earlier batch. On this trip, my wife fired 100 rounds of Magtech with 3 FTEs. She also fired 7 rounds of Hornady with no failures. I then fired 21 rounds of Independence aluminum 115g with 1 failure.

One good note. We have never had a failure with Hornady but then we have not shot more than 100 rounds.

So here are the questions,
1. Is this gun reliable enough to be my wife's EDC?
2. Is this gun reliable enough to be our nightstand gun?

[Vol Texan]

I am trying to decide whether a gun is reliable enough to be my wife's EDC and/or our nightstand gun. The gun in question is a Sig P938. When we purchased the gun new, it had some issues. We sent it to Sig and they significantly improved its function. We are now almost a year and over 1,200 rounds later and having some issues. Here are some recent range reports.

Starting with a just cleaned and lubed gun, my wife fired 7 rounds of Hornady Critical Defense 115g with no problems. Then she fired about 50 rounds of Magtech 115g and had at least 7 Failure to Extract (FTE). Dropping the magazine and racking the slide always extracted the spent brass. A friend said it felt like the brass was kind of sticking while being extracted. He took the gun home and cleaned it with an "extreme" solvent that he said strips all fouling.

The next range trip, my wife and friend took turns firing another 50 rounds of Magtech. The failure rate was even worse, 8 or 9 FTEs. I called Sig and they said they had been having problems with Magtech and suggested I try some different ammo.

The next range trip, my wife fired 7 rounds of Hornady and 50 rounds of Perfecta 115g with no failures. I fired 14 rounds of Hornady, also with no failures.

Since I was buying the Magtech in 1000 round case lots, I dug into my stash for a couple of boxes from an earlier batch. On this trip, my wife fired 100 rounds of Magtech with 3 FTEs. She also fired 7 rounds of Hornady with no failures. I then fired 21 rounds of Independence aluminum 115g with 1 failure.

One good note. We have never had a failure with Hornady but then we have not shot more than 100 rounds.

So here are the questions,
1. Is this gun reliable enough to be my wife's EDC?
2. Is this gun reliable enough to be our nightstand gun?

No gun is ever going to be perfect, but I expect a high confidence rate from my EDC. If I had one with a significant amount of failures, I'd probably shop around for something else.

Now it could be that it's a grip problem. I have a couple of my guns that my wife had a hard time shooting until she learned how to hold them well. Too much give in her grip caused it to not cycle well after firing, and we'd get all sorts of issues.

If you can isolate that as a problem, and then train the problem away, then good!

For a gun that I carry, I may be more tolerant to FTE issues. I practice a lot, and can clear it well. But for my wife, I want 99.99999% uptime on her carry gun. I don't want her to EVER have to clear a jam.

[oljames3]

For a gun that I carry, I may be more tolerant to FTE issues. I practice a lot, and can clear it well. But for my wife, I want 99.99999% uptime on her carry gun. I don't want her to EVER have to clear a jam.

Agreed. I don't ever want to be in the position of my wife having her gun fail when she needed it. That's one reason she carries a Ruger LCR in .38.

[Jusme]

It could also be as Sig said, and more of an issue with the Magtech ammo. Before, I completely gave up on it, I would try other ammo. I know that it is hard to do if you are buying one type in large amounts, but some guns, just don't fire all ammo the same. JMHO

[RPBrown]

I had an issue with Magtech .45 in my EDC that has been 100% reliable with Hornaday. I carry Hornaday exclusively as my EDC ammo for over a year now. I did have some of the same issues with my wife's P938 and Magtech but since I have started carrying it as my BUG, it now gets Hornaday and never had an issue.

[flechero]

7 failures in 57 rounds... IMO, not reliable. (it's failed with both shooters on several ammo types) But only you/her can decide if it's good enough for you or her.

Put it this way with my 2 primary carry guns... my 4" 1911 has gone over 4000 rounds with 1 failure... and that was a squib reload- not the gun's fault. The other has gone (unknown rounds but in the 1k-1.5K) and had 1 fte about 6 years ago but it was shot without the mag in it. My wife's results are similar, although her round counts are much lower.

You need to isolate the issue to her, the gun or the ammo and proceed accordingly. But I would never leave my wife a gun for SD/HD that has better than a 10% fail rate with her behind the trigger... Murphy will enter just ahead of the intruder.

I'd spend your next $100-$200 on a training class for her (or both as it's fun and helpful) to ensure that she is shooting properly and to be sure she can clear the weapon and get back into the fight in a couple seconds- then maybe shop for another gun option if that needs to happen.

Best of luck!

[warnmar10]

...
Starting with a just cleaned and lubed gun, ...

How much lube and where are you applying it?

[FCH]

...Now it could be that it's a grip problem. I have a couple of my guns that my wife had a hard time shooting until she learned how to hold them well. Too much give in her grip caused it to not cycle well after firing, and we'd get all sorts of issues.

If you can isolate that as a problem, and then train the problem away, then good!

For a gun that I carry, I may be more tolerant to FTE issues. I practice a lot, and can clear it well. But for my wife, I want 99.99999% uptime on her carry gun. I don't want her to EVER have to clear a jam.

My wife keeps saying she thinks she may be part of the problem. She has a hard time with the slide (age related grip issues) and the FTEs almost always occur with the first round in the magazine. It is almost impossible to depress the slide stop so we chamber the first round by pulling back on the slide and releasing it. I wonder if my wife may be releasing the slide too slowly. That said, the FTEs have occurred for my friend and myself but at a much lower rate.

This may be a good excuse to buy a professional's time just to help us both!

[FCH]

7 failures in 57 rounds... IMO, not reliable. (it's failed with both shooters on several ammo types) But only you/her can decide if it's good enough for you or her.

Put it this way with my 2 primary carry guns... my 4" 1911 has gone over 4000 rounds with 1 failure... and that was a squib reload- not the gun's fault. The other has gone (unknown rounds but in the 1k-1.5K) and had 1 fte about 6 years ago but it was shot without the mag in it. My wife's results are similar, although her round counts are much lower.

You need to isolate the issue to her, the gun or the ammo and proceed accordingly. But I would never leave my wife a gun for SD/HD that has better than a 10% fail rate with her behind the trigger... Murphy will enter just ahead of the intruder.

I'd spend your next $100-$200 on a training class for her (or both as it's fun and helpful) to ensure that she is shooting properly and to be sure she can clear the weapon and get back into the fight in a couple seconds- then maybe shop for another gun option if that needs to happen.

Best of luck!

My frustration is not being able to isolate the issue. I don't think this rate of failure is acceptable but I have very little experience with semi-auto weapons. I'm pushing 4,000 rounds through my EDC, a CZ 75D Compact, and I have had 3 failures, none of with were the gun's fault. I also have a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 with well over 1,000 rounds and the only failure I have had with it was just this last trip when one of the aluminum Independence rounds failed to clear the ejection port. My 3rd semi-auto is a Marlin Model 60. It does have occasional failures but I've always thought it was the cheap 22LR ammo.

I'm thinking some time spent with a pro may be both fun and a good investment.

[FCH]

...
Starting with a just cleaned and lubed gun, ...

How much lube and where are you applying it?

I use M-Pro 7. I put a couple of drops on a swab and run it through the barrel. I touch the tip of the lube bottle to the top of the barrel where it rubs on the slide. I touch the tip of the bottle to the frame rails where the slide contacts. Finally, I put just a small amount on the slide stop pin.

[Flightmare]

I've got a P938 and was shooting some Magtech out of it just this past weekend. I think I went through 100-150 rounds without a single failure. But like you said, it could be a bad batch of magtech. I suppose a relatively inexpensive way to confirm would be to buy 3-4 boxes of another brand of ammo and try it out.

[hovercat]

IMO, you should have the same confidence in a self defense firearm as you do in the brakes on your car.

[WTR]

You can always get a good revolver.

[flechero]

IMO, you should have the same confidence in a self defense firearm as you do in the brakes on your car.

That's a great analogy!

[The Annoyed Man]

Interesting....... I've never had an issue with Magtech ammo, in any pistol, in any caliber, in any platform. The thing is, you've got more than one potential issue going on, and that adds to the complexity of diagnosing the specific problem with your wife, with that pistol. But to answer your most basic question: NO, I would NOT want my wife to rely on this pistol for carry or home defense if the problem(s) cannot be eradicated. The flip side of that is that I don't try to dictate to my wife what she will or will not carry, without her agreement that she has problems or a lack of confidence in the gun. But that's just me.

It sounds to me like your wife might be limp-wristing the P938, which is initiating/exacerbating any potential ammo issues with the Magtech ammo. It may well be, as you suggest, that she is not properly releasing the slide when charging the gun, and "following" the slide home, causing a failure to go into battery; but if that is happening, then the gun shouldn't fire at all.....because if the slide isn't in battery, the firing pin shouldn't be able to reach the primer, right?

So while she may indeed be doing that with the slide, I don't think it has anything to do with the problem she's having with the other failures.

A basic pistol class would probably be a good idea for your wife. Tactical type training would be a waste of money if the instructor has to spend all of his/her time teaching your wife how to manage the most basic parts of the pistol's manual of arms. By all means, get some tactical-type training, but have her take a basic pistol class first.

I wanted to say something about the choice of a P938, which I hope won't ruffle the feathers of people who carry them. First let me say that I think it is a great little pistol. But I wanted to also say that I don't think it is the best platform for someone who may still be considered a novice shooter. This is just my opinion. My reasoning is this: the user interface is more complicated than a simple point-click. You have what is essentially a scaled down 1911. The option to carry cocked and locked, the manual thumb-safety, the light trigger pull all add up to a level of mechanical complexity that makes it unsuitable to a novice shooter, in my humble opinion. Then, add the fact that it is a small semiauto with a short 3" barrel and slide. Pretty much all pistols of those general dimensions have fairly stiff recoil springs that make it harder for smaller statured people to wrack the slide. That stiff recoil spring also makes it harder to pull the slide back far enough off its slide stop to "slingshot" it into battery. I believe that the reason people sometimes ride the slide forward like that is simply that they can't let go of it fast enough before the spring tension forces the slide forward.

Now, there are techniques for dealing with that for people who struggle with it. There are also tools specifically made for assisting someone with wracking a slide. But another thing to consider is (A) whether or not a 3" 9mm is the best choice for your wife; and (B) if it is, is the P938 the best choice for a 3" 9mm for your wife. My wife is not particularly a "gun person", but she does own more than one, and she carries daily. She owns a G19 and a G43, and a S&W 642. She has also previously owned a Khar CW9. When her CHL first came in, she started with carrying her 642 because it was easy to understand: just aim, and pull the trigger ........and it was very safe to carry because of the long heavy trigger pull. The problem was that the same heavy trigger which made it safe to carry, also made it very unpleasant for her to practice with it. She really likes her G19, which she shoots well, and which is easier for her to wrack the slide, but it doesn't really fit her carry styles (purse, or belly band). So she carries her G43, which she shoots relatively well, and which she is still able to manage the slide, even though it is more difficult than her G19.

The thing is, there is a whole raft of subcompact 9mm polymer framed pistols that are safe, easy to shoot, and available in either double or single stack configurations........ Kahr PM9/CM9, Glock 43 and 26, S&W M&P Shield, S&W M&P Beretta Nano, Springfield XDS9, etc.... and they are all "revolver-like" for their simplicity of operation. It might be worth looking at some of them to compare recoil spring tension to see if they are easier to wrack than the P938, and I'll bet they are less ammo sensitive. But even if they are not, they are in all probability easier to use from the perspective of the manual of arms, and external mechanical simplicity. It may turn out that the P938 is still the best choice for her, but at least you'll have done the research. My advice is that you let her choose the gun, regardless of your own personal preferences. She's the one who has to have confidence in it, even more so than your feelings in the matter, if it is to be her pistol.