The prodigal returns home!

[WTR]

I was also told in the early 70s by the head of the local PDs "TACTICAL TEAM"....now SWAT that he did not recommend the High Power I carried in 9mm even with the superior capacity.. He said that a 9 will eventually kill a perp, but a .45 thumps them and puts them on their backside and he can go on to a different perp if need be. The gang task force guys I knew all to a man carried some variation of the 1911 in .45 ACP.......same reasoning.

[carlson1]

I was also told in the early 70s by the head of the local PDs "TACTICAL TEAM"....now SWAT that he did not recommend the High Power I carried in 9mm even with the superior capacity.. He said that a 9 will eventually kill a perp, but a .45 thumps them and puts them on their backside and he can go on to a different perp if need be. The gang task force guys I knew all to a man carried some variation of the 1911 in .45 ACP.......same reasoning.

When I entered UC Narctotics is when I went with the 1911 because our Sergeant said, "carry what you want to." Way back then it was obvious to me if I was going to stop someone on PCP with a handgun I had a better chance with a .45 than the 9mm. There were no 10mm and .357 Sig in those days.

[Beiruty]

Yesterday, I shot my friend new out of the box CZ SP-01 Shadow, best and most accurate SA/DA steel frame pistol I ever shot. Amazing trigger feel.
That being said, my RIA 1911 single-stack 9mm was as accurate and easy to shoot as the CZ Shadow. Oh I paid 1/4 of the price of the Shadow for my RIA.

That being said I see a Shadow/Accu in my near future.

[Liberty]

Life is full of engineering tradeoffs. Corvettes are more fun than Honda's . But Honda's are cheaper to own and run. Owning a Honda allows me to buy other nice things. The thing is that there are hard facts we can use to compare when choosing a car, things like; cost, resale value, fuel economy, acceleration, top speed, and handling comparisons.

Unfortunately there are no hard statistics when comparing how fast a particular bullet will stop someone. We do have ballistic gelatin testing which although can give us some good information on wound characteristics and penetration. Unfortunately, it's not perfect. We don't have any quantitative data, on this mysterious quality called stopping power. Some bullets will stop a human being faster than others. We know that bullet energy, expansion, and bullet mass are all factors. What we don't know how all these factors factor in on how fast the it will stop a threat.

It would be nice if there were actual facts rather than war stories from random police officers, If substantial data could be gathered maybe we could determine what bullet factors contribute to a faster "stop". Is it diameter, bullet weight, louder sounds, or greater skills of a 1911 operator over a Glock operator? Or maybe 1911s are more accurate? Maybe we can do some test on feral pigs or ISIS detainees, but without clear data though, reports of faster perp takedowns are just stories and rumors.
I'm not saying that .45 isn't a good caliber, cause it is. In fact, most of us understand that it's as good if not better ballistically than a 9mm. There are so many other factors. Weapons choice, ammo costs, recoil and availability.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I have a digital food scale to use for weighing guns and related gear. Here are some weights that you may (or may not) find interesting. All weights are in ounces for a fully loaded handgun.

• Gov't Model 1911 .45ACP (8rd mag. +1): 45.39 oz.
  Stainless Commander 1911 .45ACP (8rd mag. +1): 43.28 oz.
  Light weight Commander 1911 .45ACP (8rd mag. +1): 36.79 oz
  Officer's Model 1911 (all steel) .45ACP (7rd mag. +1): 39.43 oz.
  Kimber Untra Carry 1911 (3" barrel) .45ACP (7rd mag. +1) 30.33 oz.
  CZ75 Compact PCR (aluminum frame) 9mm (14rd mag. +1): 33.72 oz.
  
  8rd .45ACP mag with 230 gr. JHP: 8.28oz.

Just to show how chasing the lighter weight gun can exalt form over substance, the weight difference between a Gov't (5") model and a lightweight Commander is just slightly over the weight of a loaded 8rd mag.

Chas.

[The Annoyed Man]

Handguns for the military are backup weapons, but us they are not only primary weapons, but likely the only weapons we will have if attacked.

Chas.

Then times have changed in the military Charles. In my infantry days, as mechanized infantry mortar squad leader my only issued weapon, and the only one I had if attacked, was a 1911.

What happened to the mortar? Sorry.........I couldn't help myself.

[oljames3]

Handguns for the military are backup weapons, but us they are not only primary weapons, but likely the only weapons we will have if attacked.

Chas.

Then times have changed in the military Charles. In my infantry days, as mechanized infantry mortar squad leader my only issued weapon, and the only one I had if attacked, was a 1911.

What happened to the mortar? Sorry.........I couldn't help myself.

OK. Now you've gone and done it. At my first duty assignment after AIT I was a Redeye Gunner assigned to HHB of an artillery battalion. Individual weapon for Redeye Gunners was M1911. Years later, as an artillery oficer, my individual weapon was often a M1911 or M9.

In all cases, however, I considered by primary weapon to the the M109A5 self-propelled 155mm howitzer.

[The Annoyed Man]

Handguns for the military are backup weapons, but us they are not only primary weapons, but likely the only weapons we will have if attacked.

Chas.

Then times have changed in the military Charles. In my infantry days, as mechanized infantry mortar squad leader my only issued weapon, and the only one I had if attacked, was a 1911.

What happened to the mortar? Sorry.........I couldn't help myself.

OK. Now you've gone and done it. At my first duty assignment after AIT I was a Redeye Gunner assigned to HHB of an artillery battalion. Individual weapon for Redeye Gunners was M1911. Years later, as an artillery oficer, my individual weapon was often a M1911 or M9.

In all cases, however, I considered by primary weapon to the the M109A5 self-propelled 155mm howitzer.

How do you carry one of those, OWB or IWB? I suppose that a shoulder holster would be a little too enterprising......

[Keith B]

Personally, if i could figure out how to carry a handgun with 12ga slugs in it, that would be my preferred round to stop someone with due to the mass and diameter of the slug. When you are in a gunfight, cutting off fractions of seconds on ending the fight means the possibility of you living versus dying.

If the judge in .410 wasn't so big, I would carry one of those.

I am not a fan of the Judge overall. .410 shot shells are just not that great for defense. A .410 slug is only a little over .38 caliber and the heaviest one is about 110 grains. .38 caliber bullets are around 158 grain, and .40 caliber tops out around 180 grain. They match energy-wise at close range, but the Kinetic Energy drops off really fast when you go out in distance. Even with a .45 Long Colt round, they are not really set up for defense in that you can get just as much bang for your buck with a .45 ACP, and it's much faster to shoot and reload, and have a much lighter gun.

So, while it sounds like it might be a great defense gun, I think there are much better choices, even for use in hunting with a handgun.

Here's a pretty good article on the .410 slug and energy/transfer http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/

[Roger Howard]

I have a digital food scale to use for weighing guns and related gear. Here are some weights that you may (or may not) find interesting. All weights are in ounces for a fully loaded handgun.

• Gov't Model 1911 .45ACP (8rd mag. +1): 45.39 oz.
  Stainless Commander 1911 .45ACP (8rd mag. +1): 43.28 oz.
  Light weight Commander 1911 .45ACP (8rd mag. +1): 36.79 oz
  Officer's Model 1911 (all steel) .45ACP (7rd mag. +1): 39.43 oz.
  Kimber Untra Carry 1911 (3" barrel) .45ACP (7rd mag. +1) 30.33 oz.
  CZ75 Compact PCR (aluminum frame) 9mm (14rd mag. +1): 33.72 oz.
  
  8rd .45ACP mag with 230 gr. JHP: 8.28oz.

Just to show how chasing the lighter weight gun can exalt form over substance, the weight difference between a Gov't (5") model and a lightweight Commander is just slightly over the weight of a loaded 8rd mag.

Chas.

Thanks for sharing this. One more reason to love my Kimber Ultra Carry

[karder]

I like .45 and love 1911's, so I could never argue with that EDC choice.


At the last tactical shooting course I took, the instructor had an interesting take. To paraphrase, he noted:

"There are two things that kill you in combat. Blood loss and an obstructed airway. Guns kill you the same way knives do. They make holes and let your blood out. When enough blood gets out, you die. That is important to understand, whether you are trying to stop an attacker, or trying to help someone who has been shot. 9mm, .40, .45, .357, any major caliber will let the blood out just fine. Your job is to let the blood out a quickly as possible to stop the aggression. Whatever tool you choose to use to do that is up to you."

Sure, this is an oversimplification, but still, as someone who like to pour over ballistic information, I found it to be an interesting perspective.

[Roger Howard]

Personally, if i could figure out how to carry a handgun with 12ga slugs in it, that would be my preferred round to stop someone with due to the mass and diameter of the slug. When you are in a gunfight, cutting off fractions of seconds on ending the fight means the possibility of you living versus dying.

If the judge in .410 wasn't so big, I would carry one of those.

I am not a fan of the Judge overall. .410 shot shells are just not that great for defense. A .410 slug is only a little over .38 caliber and the heaviest one is about 110 grains. .38 caliber bullets are around 158 grain, and .40 caliber tops out around 180 grain. They match energy-wise at close range, but the Kinetic Energy drops off really fast when you go out in distance. Even with a .45 Long Colt round, they are not really set up for defense in that you can get just as much bang for your buck with a .45 ACP, and it's much faster to shoot and reload, and have a much lighter gun.

So, while it sounds like it might be a great defense gun, I think there are much better choices, even for use in hunting with a handgun.

Here's a pretty good article on the .410 slug and energy/transfer http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/

Exactly why my Kimber is my first choice for carry.

[Keith B]

I like .45 and love 1911's, so I could never argue with that EDC choice.


At the last tactical shooting course I took, the instructor had an interesting take. To paraphrase, he noted:

"There are two things that kill you in combat. Blood loss and an obstructed airway. Guns kill you the same way knives do. They make holes and let your blood out. When enough blood gets out, you die. That is important to understand, whether you are trying to stop an attacker, or trying to help someone who has been shot. 9mm, .40, .45, .357, any major caliber will let the blood out just fine. Your job is to let the blood out a quickly as possible to stop the aggression. Whatever tool you choose to use to do that is up to you."

Sure, this is an oversimplification, but still, as someone who like to pour over ballistic information, I found it to be an interesting perspective.

Shooting an attacker to stop them is a lot like good real estate; Location, location, location. Shot placement is critical to up your chances of hitting vital organs/arteries.

One additional items that your instructor didn't mention was shock to the central nervous system. A shot that causes hrd shock to the CNS will shut down an attacker immediately. That is the best hope you can get for stopping someone. Bleed out can take 7-8 seconds at minimum, even with a heart hit, so they may still have time to shoot at you. So, the more energy you can pass along to the impact, the better the penetration and potential CNS shock or deep enough to hit a vital organ.

[carlson1]

I have a digital food scale to use for weighing guns and related gear. Here are some weights that you may (or may not) find interesting. All weights are in ounces for a fully loaded handgun.

• Gov't Model 1911 .45ACP (8rd mag. +1): 45.39 oz.
  Stainless Commander 1911 .45ACP (8rd mag. +1): 43.28 oz.
  Light weight Commander 1911 .45ACP (8rd mag. +1): 36.79 oz
  Officer's Model 1911 (all steel) .45ACP (7rd mag. +1): 39.43 oz.
  Kimber Untra Carry 1911 (3" barrel) .45ACP (7rd mag. +1) 30.33 oz.
  CZ75 Compact PCR (aluminum frame) 9mm (14rd mag. +1): 33.72 oz.
  
  8rd .45ACP mag with 230 gr. JHP: 8.28oz.

Just to show how chasing the lighter weight gun can exalt form over substance, the weight difference between a Gov't (5") model and a lightweight Commander is just slightly over the weight of a loaded 8rd mag.

Chas.

Well I went an ordered a Comp Tac for my government model. I didn't realize there was such little difference in the weight of the commander and the government model. That said my commander has a bobtail and it is easy to conceal and feels better on my palm. I am taking a 1911class Friday and I will see how well the government model works out.

[WildBill]

I realize I am late to this post, but the caliber argument for me hasn't been much of a decision for me.
I am not sure exactly why, but I have never been able to shoot a .45 ACP as accurately as I would like.
That is why I have carried .38 Spec +P and 9 mm.