Weird "NO FIREARMS" sign at Bratonia Park, Princeton

[nitrogen]

Saw this sign over by the drone/RC area at Bratonia Park in Princeton:

I was open carrying at the time, and just put my stuff in my backpack "just in case."

I dont see any reason why this sign is legit, or would apply to a CHL or other license to carry, but due to the proximity to Lake Lavon, I figure i'd ask, in case it was some kind of weird edge case I dont know abut.



http://www.collincountytx.gov/parks/Pages/bratonia.aspx
http://www.rrcc.org/

[Pawpaw]

Looking at this COE map of Lake Lavon, the park is COE property, so carry is not allowed. Having a CHL/LTC doesn't matter.

[loktite]

Looking at this [url=chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/lavon/ ... 0Final.pdf]COE map of Lake Lavon[/url], the park is COE property, so carry is not allowed. Having a CHL/LTC doesn't matter.

link didn't copy correctly (at least for non Chrome users)

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/lavon/ ... 0Final.pdf

[Pawpaw]

Looking at this [url=chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/lavon/ ... 0Final.pdf]COE map of Lake Lavon[/url], the park is COE property, so carry is not allowed. Having a CHL/LTC doesn't matter.

link didn't copy correctly (at least for non Chrome users)

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/lavon/ ... 0Final.pdf

Thanks, I fixed it in my original post.

[LucasMcCain]

Just wondering, but is COE property typically posted as such? I don't know that I've ever been somewhere that was, but I guess I might have done so without knowing it if they don't have signs or anything. Is the only way to know by looking it up online?

[vjallen75]

Just wondering, but is COE property typically posted as such? I don't know that I've ever been somewhere that was, but I guess I might have done so without knowing it if they don't have signs or anything. Is the only way to know by looking it up online?

JMHO - I've never seen signs too. I think it needs to be posted. I understand it's our responsibility to know where we can/cannot carry. But we can't know the boundaries without looking directly at a map.

[psijac]

It's weird that drones have reached enough popularity to warrent it's own park. What next a robotic dog?

[Solaris]

Saw this sign over by the drone/RC area at Bratonia Park in Princeton:

I was open carrying at the time, and just put my stuff in my backpack "just in case."

I dont see any reason why this sign is legit, or would apply to a CHL or other license to carry, but due to the proximity to Lake Lavon, I figure i'd ask, in case it was some kind of weird edge case I dont know abut.

Why would it not be legit? Property owners can ban guns if they want - alcohol and fireworks too. Some exceptions might apply such as handguns by LTC or guns by LEOs, but in general it is a legit sign if you are not one of the exceptions.

[Vol Texan]

Saw this sign over by the drone/RC area at Bratonia Park in Princeton:

I was open carrying at the time, and just put my stuff in my backpack "just in case."

I dont see any reason why this sign is legit, or would apply to a CHL or other license to carry, but due to the proximity to Lake Lavon, I figure i'd ask, in case it was some kind of weird edge case I dont know abut.

Why would it not be legit? Property owners can ban guns if they want - alcohol and fireworks too. Some exceptions might apply such as handguns by LTC or guns by LEOs, but in general it is a legit sign if you are not one of the exceptions.

Private property owners can, but Texas government (state, county, local, etc.) cannot, with few exceptions. Other than the idea that this is COE land, carry would be 100% legal there, irrespective of any sign they put up.

[Solaris]

Saw this sign over by the drone/RC area at Bratonia Park in Princeton:

I was open carrying at the time, and just put my stuff in my backpack "just in case."

I dont see any reason why this sign is legit, or would apply to a CHL or other license to carry, but due to the proximity to Lake Lavon, I figure i'd ask, in case it was some kind of weird edge case I dont know abut.

Why would it not be legit? Property owners can ban guns if they want - alcohol and fireworks too. Some exceptions might apply such as handguns by LTC or guns by LEOs, but in general it is a legit sign if you are not one of the exceptions.

Private property owners can, but Texas government (state, county, local, etc.) cannot, with few exceptions. Other than the idea that this is COE land, carry would be 100% legal there, irrespective of any sign they put up.

There are no laws that prevent federal, state, county, local, etc., from putting up that sign and it being 100% enforceable if you are not one of the exceptions I alluded to.

[ScottDLS]

Saw this sign over by the drone/RC area at Bratonia Park in Princeton:

I was open carrying at the time, and just put my stuff in my backpack "just in case."

I dont see any reason why this sign is legit, or would apply to a CHL or other license to carry, but due to the proximity to Lake Lavon, I figure i'd ask, in case it was some kind of weird edge case I dont know abut.

Why would it not be legit? Property owners can ban guns if they want - alcohol and fireworks too. Some exceptions might apply such as handguns by LTC or guns by LEOs, but in general it is a legit sign if you are not one of the exceptions.

Private property owners can, but Texas government (state, county, local, etc.) cannot, with few exceptions. Other than the idea that this is COE land, carry would be 100% legal there, irrespective of any sign they put up.

There are no laws that prevent federal, state, county, local, etc., from putting up that sign and it being 100% enforceable if you are not one of the exceptions I alluded to.

If state/local put up the signs it would violate state preemption of firearms laws, so they could not make it a criminal offense. It also arguably doesn't meet the requirements of 30.05 trespass law to bar your entry generally.

[Solaris]

If state/local put up the signs it would violate state preemption of firearms laws, so they could not make it a criminal offense.

No it would not violate that, as the law specifically allows it. Google-Fu FTW once again.

Sec. 229.001. FIREARMS; AIR GUNS; KNIVES; EXPLOSIVES. (a) Notwithstanding any other law, including Section 43.002 of this code and Chapter 251, Agriculture Code, a municipality may not adopt regulations relating to:
(1) the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, air guns, knives, ammunition, or firearm or air gun supplies; or
(2) the discharge of a firearm or air gun at a sport shooting range.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under another law to:
...
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm or air gun by a person other than a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;

So as I wrote, unless you are one of the exceptions, the sign is enforceable.

[Keith B]

If state/local put up the signs it would violate state preemption of firearms laws, so they could not make it a criminal offense.

No it would not violate that, as the law specifically allows it. Google-Fu FTW once again.

Sec. 229.001. FIREARMS; AIR GUNS; KNIVES; EXPLOSIVES. (a) Notwithstanding any other law, including Section 43.002 of this code and Chapter 251, Agriculture Code, a municipality may not adopt regulations relating to:
(1) the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, air guns, knives, ammunition, or firearm or air gun supplies; or
(2) the discharge of a firearm or air gun at a sport shooting range.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under another law to:
...
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm or air gun by a person other than a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;

So as I wrote, unless you are one of the exceptions, the sign is enforceable.

Only a 30.06 or 30.07 or a sign trying to prohibit concealed carry by a license holder would violate the rule.

[Skiprr]

Just wondering, but is COE property typically posted as such? I don't know that I've ever been somewhere that was, but I guess I might have done so without knowing it if they don't have signs or anything. Is the only way to know by looking it up online?

To my knowledge, there are no specific signage requirements for COE land. For example, there are huge areas of COE land on the west side of Houston, both north and south of I-10, and in addition to streets large and small there are walking and biking trails that cross into and out of the COE land without signs demarcating the property.

Doubly confusing is that much of this land is also designated as Harris County parkland, specifically Bear Creek Park and George Bush Park. You would correctly think that LTC/CHL carry could not legally be prohibited in a municipal or county park, but in this case the land is owned by the ACOE, not the county.

American Shooting Center in George Bush Park even sits on COE land (with street names like "Shooting Center Drive" and "Sporting Clay Loop") which is legal if the ACOE specifically allows it. So, AFAIK, it isn't always easy to know when you cross onto COE property, and whether or not it's legal to have a firearm with you when you do.

[ScottDLS]

If state/local put up the signs it would violate state preemption of firearms laws, so they could not make it a criminal offense.

No it would not violate that, as the law specifically allows it. Google-Fu FTW once again.

Sec. 229.001. FIREARMS; AIR GUNS; KNIVES; EXPLOSIVES. (a) Notwithstanding any other law, including Section 43.002 of this code and Chapter 251, Agriculture Code, a municipality may not adopt regulations relating to:
(1) the transfer, private ownership, keeping, transportation, licensing, or registration of firearms, air guns, knives, ammunition, or firearm or air gun supplies; or
(2) the discharge of a firearm or air gun at a sport shooting range.
(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under another law to:
...
(6) regulate the carrying of a firearm or air gun by a person other than a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;

So as I wrote, unless you are one of the exceptions, the sign is enforceable.

Yes. I see you are correct, although interestingly if you have a LTC, they couldn't prevent you from carrying an air gun or other firearm including a long gun....that is all assuming this wasn't ACOE land, which it is.