Quick check - hospital

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

Moderator: carlson1

User avatar

LucasMcCain
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:00 pm
Location: DFW, Texas

Re: Quick check - hospital

#16

Post by LucasMcCain »

NotRPB wrote:I do know two hospitals which have no signs, and one which has an outdated 30.06 sign.
Since I have to go to 30.06 30.07 posted hospitals almost weekly, that's why I got the Kel Tec Sub 2000 folding rifle I conceal carry in hospitals.. It does not violate 30.06 NOR 46.035 and uses the same mags of the handgun I cannot legally carry concealed inside. Yes, anyone could carry a concealed rifle, licensed or not, but the weight is less comfortable or more trouble. So, I can ignore said signs and not have to look for them at such places when they force me to leave my concealed handgun outside and conceal carry my rifle inside instead. Everywhere else I carry my handguns. http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm
On the whole, I believe you are correct. I have been considering buying a Sub2k for that very reason. However, I would offer one word of caution:

Unless I am mistaken, "gunbuster" or "no firearms" signs do carry force of law with regard to the carry of long guns. So if the 30.06 sign has a gunbuster on it as well, or they take the time to put a "no guns" sign up in addition, you still cannot carry legally.

If I'm mistaken, someone please let me know. I'm not entirely sure which law you would be charged under.
I prefer dangerous freedom to safety in chains.

Let's go Brandon.

NotRPB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 8:24 am

Re: Quick check - hospital

#17

Post by NotRPB »

If I understand the reasoning, you mean 30.05?
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm
Seton Hospitals. around Austin, have NO TOBACCO signs at the entrances,
I do not know if that is proper 30.05 notice walking in with a can of snuff in the back pocket if that would constitute an offense

Class B misdemeanor for a can of snuff/Pack of cigarettes?
Certainly if someone came up and said to take my concealed can of snuff out to the car, I'd do it right away.

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

(b) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.
(2) "Notice" means:
(A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;
(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;
(D) the placement of identifying purple paint marks on trees or posts on the property, provided that the marks are:
(i) vertical lines of not less than eight inches in length and not less than one inch in width;
(ii) placed so that the bottom of the mark is not less than three feet from the ground or more than five feet from the ground; and
(iii) placed at locations that are readily visible to any person approaching the property and no more than:
(a) 100 feet apart on forest land; or
(b) 1,000 feet apart on land other than forest land; or
(E) the visible presence on the property of a crop grown for human consumption that is under cultivation, in the process of being harvested, or marketable if harvested at the time of entry.
d) An offense under this section is:
(1) a Class B misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivisions (2) and (3);
(2) a Class C misdemeanor, except as provided by Subdivision (3), if the offense is committed:
(A) on agricultural land and within 100 feet of the boundary of the land; or
(B) on residential land and within 100 feet of a protected freshwater area; and
(3) a Class A misdemeanor if:
(A) the offense is committed:
(i) in a habitation or a shelter center;
(ii) on a Superfund site; or
(iii) on or in a critical infrastructure facility; or
(B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense.

Most gunbuster signs to me say no Beretta handguns... I leave mine at home.
PS (I don't use tobacco products any more)

signs need to be specific, else people can be confused
Image
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by NotRPB on Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar

LucasMcCain
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:00 pm
Location: DFW, Texas

Re: Quick check - hospital

#18

Post by LucasMcCain »

I'm honestly not referring to a specific law. It was just my general understanding that simple gunbuster or no guns signs had force of law with respect to the carry of long guns. I could certainly be wrong about this. I might have to ask my "lawyer friends" about this one if nobody here has a definitive answer. However, I could see the section you posted being interpreted that way, and that would make an offense a Class A Misdemeanor.
I prefer dangerous freedom to safety in chains.

Let's go Brandon.

NotRPB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 8:24 am

Re: Quick check - hospital

#19

Post by NotRPB »

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster.
Here's a 30.05 sign I'd ignore with my handgun and license, but probably would apply to a rifle
The cigarette-buster sign to me indicates a WISH, not the force of law, same as gunbuster signs.
(There may or may not be a city ordinance regarding smoking in buildings, but that sign isn't citing any such ordinance, nor do most gunbuster signs I've seen)
Image
ImageImageImage

Solaris
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:06 pm

Re: Quick check - hospital

#20

Post by Solaris »

NotRPB wrote: Here's a 30.05 sign I'd ignore with my handgun and license, but probably would apply to a rifle

Image
Why would you ignore it? It might be a factual sign and carrying a firearm might be illegal. You need to know what is going on at that place before you decide if you can ignore it or not.
User avatar

ScottDLS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 5080
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:04 am
Location: DFW Area, TX

Re: Quick check - hospital

#21

Post by ScottDLS »

Solaris wrote:
NotRPB wrote: Here's a 30.05 sign I'd ignore with my handgun and license, but probably would apply to a rifle

Image
Why would you ignore it? It might be a factual sign and carrying a firearm might be illegal. You need to know what is going on at that place before you decide if you can ignore it or not.
Because you couldn't be prosecuted for carrying at a hospital unless they are posted w/ 30.06 compliant sign. This sign tells me nothing. Am I supposed to assume that it means the hospital is a school or a professional football game is going on?
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

Solaris
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:06 pm

Re: Quick check - hospital

#22

Post by Solaris »

ScottDLS wrote:
Solaris wrote:
NotRPB wrote: Here's a 30.05 sign I'd ignore with my handgun and license, but probably would apply to a rifle

Why would you ignore it? It might be a factual sign and carrying a firearm might be illegal. You need to know what is going on at that place before you decide if you can ignore it or not.
Because you couldn't be prosecuted for carrying at a hospital unless they are posted w/ 30.06 compliant sign.
Actually as txpilot pointed out on previous page, you could be prosecuted, which is my point. it might very well be Illegal to carry a firearm there.

For decades I thought the 30.06 signs at the Dallas Zoo could be safely ignored, little did I know I was wrong. Before you pass a warning sign (even if it improperly quotes the law), you better be certain you know what the place is.
User avatar

ScottDLS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 5080
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:04 am
Location: DFW Area, TX

Re: Quick check - hospital

#23

Post by ScottDLS »

Solaris wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
Solaris wrote:
NotRPB wrote: Here's a 30.05 sign I'd ignore with my handgun and license, but probably would apply to a rifle

Why would you ignore it? It might be a factual sign and carrying a firearm might be illegal. You need to know what is going on at that place before you decide if you can ignore it or not.
Because you couldn't be prosecuted for carrying at a hospital unless they are posted w/ 30.06 compliant sign.
Actually as txpilot pointed out on previous page, you could be prosecuted, which is my point. it might very well be Illegal to carry a firearm there.

For decades I thought the 30.06 signs at the Dallas Zoo could be safely ignored, little did I know I was wrong. Before you pass a warning sign (even if it improperly quotes the law), you better be certain you know what the place is.
What about a 30.05 sign makes it more likely that a hospital is a school?

A school doesn't have to post a sign anyway, and a VA hospital has to post a 18 USC 930 compliant sign to enforce the firearms prohibition. So you couldn't be prosecuted for carrying at a hospital, unless they were posted 30.06. You could get prosecuted for carrying at a school with or without any sign.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

NotRPB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 8:24 am

Re: Quick check - hospital

#24

Post by NotRPB »

Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. regards Firearms (handguns and long arms)
Hospitals are not on that list
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm

I see the point about if a hospital is a school or educational institution or racetrack/polling place or execution place ...etc
For handguns carried by licensees, a hospital needs an appropriate effective notice 30.06/30.07,
for long guns, a hospital needs an appropriate effective notice under 30.05
I'm no lawyer. but I slept at Holiday Inn, and played with Captain Kangaroo and Mr Greenjeans on TV once
Last edited by NotRPB on Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Solaris
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:06 pm

Re: Quick check - hospital

#25

Post by Solaris »

ScottDLS wrote:
What about a 30.05 sign makes it more likely that a hospital is a school?

A school doesn't have to post a sign anyway
You are missing the point.

They posted a sign saying carrying was illegal. You now have a choice, ignore it (as notRPB said) and face arrest as it might really be illegal to carry there unknown to you, or investigate further to make sure the sign is bogus and it is OK to carry there. Free country, you get to choose, and own your action.

Like I said, after the Dallas Zoo, I am ever more careful about ignoring signs. YMMV.
User avatar

ScottDLS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 5080
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:04 am
Location: DFW Area, TX

Re: Quick check - hospital

#26

Post by ScottDLS »

Solaris wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
What about a 30.05 sign makes it more likely that a hospital is a school?

A school doesn't have to post a sign anyway
You are missing the point.

They posted a sign saying carrying was illegal. You now have a choice, ignore it (as notRPB said) and face arrest as it might really be illegal to carry there unknown to you, or investigate further to make sure the sign is bogus and it is OK to carry there. Free country, you get to choose, and own your action.

Like I said, after the Dallas Zoo, I am ever more careful about ignoring signs. YMMV.
The sign is factually incorrect as it states that carrying is 30.05 criminal trespass, which it is not. That would make me less likely to think that it was a school...or a racetrack, or place of execution.

As for the Dallas Zoo, prior to their claiming they were an amusement park, you would have easily beaten the rap. Now the AG says he believes they are an amusement park...ultimately it will have to be decided in court. In the meantime if you were to CC, it would be very unlikely that you would be the test case.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

Solaris
Banned
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:06 pm

Re: Quick check - hospital

#27

Post by Solaris »

ScottDLS wrote:
Solaris wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
What about a 30.05 sign makes it more likely that a hospital is a school?

A school doesn't have to post a sign anyway
You are missing the point.

They posted a sign saying carrying was illegal. You now have a choice, ignore it (as notRPB said) and face arrest as it might really be illegal to carry there unknown to you, or investigate further to make sure the sign is bogus and it is OK to carry there. Free country, you get to choose, and own your action.

Like I said, after the Dallas Zoo, I am ever more careful about ignoring signs. YMMV.
The sign is factually incorrect as it states that carrying is 30.05 criminal trespass, which it is not. That would make me less likely to think that it was a school...or a racetrack, or place of execution.

As for the Dallas Zoo, prior to their claiming they were an amusement park, you would have easily beaten the rap. Now the AG says he believes they are an amusement park...ultimately it will have to be decided in court. In the meantime if you were to CC, it would be very unlikely that you would be the test case.
Still missing the point, but I admire your persistence.
User avatar

ScottDLS
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 5080
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:04 am
Location: DFW Area, TX

Re: Quick check - hospital

#28

Post by ScottDLS »

I assume the "point" is a clearly bogus sign, referencing the wrong law should make you investigate further vs. ignoring it. Even if you already know there is no legal reason to exclude you.

Who knows? The VA may be posting invalid Texas state law signs at all their US hospitals, just to let you know that they are Federal property. :lol:
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

1911 10MM
Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:59 am

Re: Quick check - hospital

#29

Post by 1911 10MM »

NotRPB wrote:
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster.
Here's a 30.05 sign I'd ignore with my handgun and license, but probably would apply to a rifle
The cigarette-buster sign to me indicates a WISH, not the force of law, same as gunbuster signs.
(There may or may not be a city ordinance regarding smoking in buildings, but that sign isn't citing any such ordinance, nor do most gunbuster signs I've seen)
Image
ImageImageImage
I guess the no smoking sign only refers to cigarettes since that is what is displayed. I guess pipes, cigars, bongs, ect.... are all ok since that is what the picture displays. The gunbuster and smoking buster signs are IMHO universal symbols that mean no firearms and no smoking. YMMV.

I am not talking about 30.06 or30.07 in regards to LTC. I am talking about concealment of a rifle and how that is applied to a gunbuster (no firearms) sign.

NotRPB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 8:24 am

Re: Quick check - hospital

#30

Post by NotRPB »

I don't know the other State's code of ordinances on smoking, it may or may not pertain to VAPING nicotine water, so I'll keep this reply pertaining to Texas Statutes and the 30.05 sign now. ...(HOWEVER, If I saw a Ohio Statute listed on a sign for no smoking posted on a Texas hospital, who from Ohio law enforcement would come to Texas to arrest you for violating a Ohio or St Louis city ordinance in Texas? :mrgreen: )

The no Firearms sign which cites 30.05 DOES apply to rifles and all "firearms" (Not guns which are not firearms like antique ones etc)
Not all guns are "Firearms" which are prohibited by that sign, example black powder or antique pistols.
or handguns carried by a licensee
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm
PENAL CODE

TITLE 10. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY, AND MORALS

CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS
3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:

(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.
(4) "Firearm silencer" means any device designed, made, or adapted to muffle the report of a firearm.
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
(6) "Illegal knife" means a:
(A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
(B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
(C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, and poniard;
(D) bowie knife;
(E) sword; or
(F) spear.
So if you saw the 30.05 sign and speak English and/or
30.05
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
And if you were still there when police finally arrive, yo could be arrested for carrying the concealed rifle which no one knew you were carrying and didn't know to call police about. (But I wouldn't carry a concealed rifle past a valid 30.05 sign like that when I could carry my handgun easier)

Because, That 30.05 sign regarding Licensees with their handguns :
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm
Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS.
f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden;(SO THAT NEGATES THE GUNBUSTER PICTURE OF A HANDGUN ON THE 30.05 SIGN ABOVE) and
(2) the person was carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
(i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a shoulder or belt holster.
Post Reply

Return to “General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion”