TexasCHLforum.com

Lawyers or legal eagles:
#1. What is the legal term used for breaking one law to keep a greater harm from taking place if the law was not broken.
ie:
Speeding to get away from an assalant.
No CHL & getting off your property w/ firearm to stop an aggrivated assault across the road.


#2. What is the "technical term" for the continued tightening of grip after an adrenalin rush that causes unintentional discharge if finger is on the "T"


Merry Christmas & Happy B-day CHLforum.

Answer: You're up too early on Christmas Morning! Santa won't be pleased!

sjfcontrol wrote:Answer: You're up too early on Christmas Morning! Santa won't be pleased!

OH yea, well what are you doing up peepin.
I had to build the mornin fire so Santa could come into a warm house.

I know what you mean, but not enough coffee yet

I believe it may be a universal moral/ethical/philosophical/legal "maxim"

I first ran across it in a theoretical ethics/morality situation given out somewhere:

A woman runs and hides in a closet behind you and says "Don't tell my husband where I am, he's going to kill me"
The man comes running up with a knife and asks "Do you know where my wife is?"
Do you lie, or tell the truth?

Lesser violation to prevent a greater one.

But like I said, I'm not awake yet.

Interestingly, while searching I ran across Islamic Law::
http://pgssajkm.blogspot.com/2009/02/le ... c-law.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“A greater harm is eliminated by means of a lesser harm” (Yuzal ad-darar ...
The madhahib are generally in agreement over them. Maxims such as “Harm must be eliminated” (Ad-dararu yuzal) and “Acts are judged by the intention behind them” (Al-umuru bi-maqasidiha) belong to this category of maxims.
Hit that link, and "CTRL F" search for "harm"... and hit "Next" and repeat
Those may be the "justifications" used by the father in murdering his daughter who joined an extremist group with plans to be a suicide bomber under Islamic law. viewtopic.php?f=94&t=40673" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also an EXERPT from a PDF, apparently from a College PHILOSOPHY class/course
http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/note110b.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Defense of Consequentialism
• You have a choice between two possible worlds, world A and world B. Assume A is better than
B. Which one should you pick?
An example: You may murder 1 innocent person to prevent 10 innocent people from being
murdered. Should you do it?


You really have to be careful in the "application" of maxims/principles.:
Example:
contrast 2 situations of shooting 1 person, to preserve many lives:
1) shooting a body bomber, to prevent mass murder. Which might get one in the News headlines as a "Hero"
and
2) shooting an abortion clinic doctor.
Example #2 is not socially acceptable. Therefore, it comes with consequences for that action, and a different set of News headlines.


Sorry I wasn't more awake, to provide a "simple" answer ... I still am not sure of the "name" of that maxim.

A lot may be found searching thusly : http://www.google.com/search?q=maxim+%2 ... fc6f926f13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a lighter, less philosophical note:

I ran across this:

TIPS and WARNINGS FOR NORTHERNERS MOVING SOUTH:
Be advised: The "He needed killin'" defense is valid here.
(Don't know what State that's from, but it was stated in jest ..... maybe)

LT wrote:

What is the "technical term" for the continued tightening of grip after an adrenalin rush that causes unintentional discharge if finger is on the "T"

Jerry, I am not sure there is a specific “term” for what you describe, at least not as it relates to gun handling, but a general tightening of the muscles (not all) is simply a response of the body to an increase of adrenalin.

How severe the response is….would depend on many things. It is not a forgone conclusion that an unintended discharge would result from an “Adrenalin Dump”, but the Sympathetic Nervous System is most certainly affected.

To a degree, there is an involuntary contraction of certain muscles in the body whenever large amounts of adrenalin are secreted. This can result in loss of fine motor skills….but may also increase muscle strength and speed.

A more likely cause for concern (finger on trigger) would be a “Startle Response”, loosely defined as a rapid tightening of the muscle groups that allow us mobility. In this heighted condition….the chances of sympathetic movement (both hands) to a stimulus is increased.

Another oddity…is that some people when placed under great stress, find it difficult to STOP doing whatever their initial response was (Fight/Flight/Freeze). That could be good or BAD.

I believe Excaliber is well versed on this subject matter…and can expand on what I’ve said. Hopefully, he will find this thread.

Flint.

longtooth wrote:Lawyers or legal eagles:
#1. What is the legal term used for breaking one law to keep a greater harm from taking place if the law was not broken.

"Necessity" TPC §9.22.

TPC §9.22 - Necessity wrote:Sec. 9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;

(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and

(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

longtooth wrote:Lawyers or legal eagles:
#1. What is the legal term used for breaking one law to keep a greater harm from taking place if the law was not broken.

"Necessity" TPC §9.22.

TPC §9.22 - Necessity wrote:Sec. 9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;

(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and

(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.

That word "clearly" is where you can get in trouble. In the case of the Luby's shootings in Killeen, killing the shooter would have clearly been justified, even if you broke the law by having a gun in the restaurant. In a case where someone breaks into your garage and steals some tools, and you spot him running down the alley with your tools, clearly isn't so clear any more.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

longtooth wrote:Lawyers or legal eagles:
#1. What is the legal term used for breaking one law to keep a greater harm from taking place if the law was not broken.

"Necessity" TPC §9.22.

TPC §9.22 - Necessity wrote:Sec. 9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;

(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and

(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.

Well yeah, if you want to get all specific and stuff <wink>
I assumed LT knows the Penal Code, but was looking for a "term" or maxim.
I shouldn't answer things "B.C." (Before Coffee) No tellin' where I'll end up when I do that.

flintknapper wrote:LT wrote:

What is the "technical term" for the continued tightening of grip after an adrenalin rush that causes unintentional discharge if finger is on the "T"

Jerry, I am not sure there is a specific “term” for what you describe, at least not as it relates to gun handling, but a general tightening of the muscles (not all) is simply a response of the body to an increase of adrenalin.

How severe the response is….would depend on many things. It is not a forgone conclusion that an unintended discharge would result from an “Adrenalin Dump”, but the Sympathetic Nervous System is most certainly affected.

To a degree, there is an involuntary contraction of certain muscles in the body whenever large amounts of adrenalin are secreted. This can result in loss of fine motor skills….but may also increase muscle strength and speed.

A more likely cause for concern (finger on trigger) would be a “Startle Response”, loosely defined as a rapid tightening of the muscle groups that allow us mobility. In this heighted condition….the chances of sympathetic movement (both hands) to a stimulus is increased.

Another oddity…is that some people when placed under great stress, find it difficult to STOP doing whatever their initial response was (Fight/Flight/Freeze). That could be good or BAD.

I believe Excaliber is well versed on this subject matter…and can expand on what I’ve said. Hopefully, he will find this thread.

Flint.

I'm not aware of anybody alarm response that would result in an ND just from the release of stress chemicals into the bloodstream. The two situations that are well documented are the involuntary clenching of both hands in a startle respond (e.g. a firecracker goes off behind you), and the sympathetic clenching of one hand when the other grabs something hard like a handrail to stop a fall, or grappling with an opponent.

Thanks Charles. THat is what I was trying to remember.

Others. Startle response I use.

Longer I think about it the term I am trying to remember that is the slow continuing tightening of the hands until discharge I believe was used by skiprr in one of his presentations.
Now I may be getting in a deeper hole.

longtooth wrote:Longer I think about it the term I am trying to remember that is the slow continuing tightening of the hands until discharge I believe was used by skiprr in one of his presentations.

LT: It wasn’t me.

But you raise an interesting point.

Increasingly, positive trigger control has become the norm in training. Meaning that once trigger pressure is initiated, it becomes a constant, uninterrupted pressure until the weapon fires...understanding that some triggers have slack or stages of uptake.

Gone are the days where initial pressure might be applied to a heavy DAO trigger in the hopes of shortening the movement to break the shot. And thank goodness those days are gone. Very bad idea.

Muscular contraction begins with a motor nerve impulse from the central nervous system, which touches off a biochemical chain of events. That biochemical chain is happening rapidly, over and over again, as a muscle is in contracture...under stress. Increasing frequency of contraction and increasing recruitment of muscle fibers occurs simultaneously. In other words, you physically cannot hold a steady, precise muscular pressure: you may feel as if you can, but some muscle fibers are firing and others are relaxing—in terms of milliseconds—in order for you to apply that seemingly constant pressure.

This is visually evident under heavy loads. Untrained weightlifters will begin to shake and vibrate as they struggle with a challenging weight. An experienced lifter, though his or her muscles are undergoing the same on/off/refresh/on cycles, will seldom seem to shake even under insurmountable loads because the individual muscle fibers are stronger, because more muscle cells are being recruited, and because training has improved the refresh-rate with which essential biochemical elements can be restored to the cell to allow the next enervation.

Under psychological stress, I certainly could imagine this effect magnified.

I’ll do a little research the next few days and see what I can find.

And Merry Christmas, my friend!

OK, guess it was not you then. Musta read it somewhere.
OH well, I will continue to teach it w/o the technical term.

Merry Christmas is nearly over.
LT

#2. What is the "technical term" for the continued tightening of grip after an adrenalin rush that causes unintentional discharge if finger is on the "T"

While it would depend on the technician, I would call it an unconditioned response.

It is false to assume that individuals will lack the capacity to safely and effectively operate a firearm under stress. Some individuals will have the ability to operate safely and effectively with little to no conditioning, others will require conditioning through training, and others still will be pretty much worthless despite any conditioning undertaken.

Performance under stress is largely dependent on first, the individual, and second, the conditioning/training of the individual.

baldeagle wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

longtooth wrote:Lawyers or legal eagles:
#1. What is the legal term used for breaking one law to keep a greater harm from taking place if the law was not broken.

"Necessity" TPC §9.22.

TPC §9.22 - Necessity wrote:Sec. 9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;

(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law proscribing the conduct; and

(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.

That word "clearly" is where you can get in trouble. In the case of the Luby's shootings in Killeen, killing the shooter would have clearly been justified, even if you broke the law by having a gun in the restaurant. In a case where someone breaks into your garage and steals some tools, and you spot him running down the alley with your tools, clearly isn't so clear any more.

I haven't seen anything prohibiting shooting a person in the back in TPC anywhere. Just the "reasonable" defense to using force, up to and including deadly force.
And I think it's pretty clear that you can apply deadly force to a fleeing subject.

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime
from escaping with the property; and

30.02. BURGLARY. (a) A person commits an offense if,
without the effective consent of the owner, the person:
(1) enters a habitation, or a building (or any portion
of a building) not then open to the public, with intent to commit a
felony, theft, or an assault; or
(2) remains concealed, with intent to commit a felony,
theft, or an assault, in a building or habitation; or
(3) enters a building or habitation and commits or
attempts to commit a felony, theft, or an assault.
(b) For purposes of this section, "enter" means to intrude:
(1) any part of the body; or
(2) any physical object connected with the body.
(c) Except as provided in Subsection (d), an offense under
this section is a:
(1) state jail felony if committed in a building other
than a habitation; or
(2) felony of the second degree if committed in a
habitation.
(d) An offense under this section is a felony of the first
degree if:
(1) the premises are a habitation; and
(2) any party to the offense entered the habitation
with intent to commit a felony other than felony theft or committed
or attempted to commit a felony other than felony theft.