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Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:38 am I do think that as instructors we sometimes forget how nervous some students can get. I've had so many tell me they were just absolutely shaking and sweating during the test. I try my best in the pre qual briefing to tell them to calm down and relax. They get 3 chances and to slow down.

Funny enough I was at the DPS facility last week for the First Responder Course. We had to pre qualify first thing and I was still nervous even though I was very confident in my abilities... They are now using the word THREAT as the command to fire. Takes a little bit of thought to translate that command into pulling the trigger when you are used to the word FIRE....

Paladin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:12 am

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 8:38 am I do think that as instructors we sometimes forget how nervous some students can get. I've had so many tell me they were just absolutely shaking and sweating during the test. I try my best in the pre qual briefing to tell them to calm down and relax. They get 3 chances and to slow down.

Funny enough I was at the DPS facility last week for the First Responder Course. We had to pre qualify first thing and I was still nervous even though I was very confident in my abilities... They are now using the word THREAT as the command to fire. Takes a little bit of thought to translate that command into pulling the trigger when you are used to the word FIRE....

This is an important thought. Agree completely that you don't want nervous students... 20+ years ago when I was first qualifying for my CHL, one of my fellow students was so nervous that he put a round in the ground on the first command to fire.

The DPS has a way of making you very nervous. During my instructor qualification, one candidate messed up and was booted from the range... another one fired too soon and got a talking too. For my part, I was extremely confident, but there was SOO MUCH tension and buildup to the first shot that I went at my "full speed" and shot my silhouette as it was still turning. Good 5 point hit, but slightly off to the side. I don't know if DPS makes shooters nervous on purpose... if so they are very good at doing that.

I'd say Army targets "pop-up" and are way more realistic than turning targets

My training system is designed to very intentionally reduce the nervousness of students. I have found that is the best way to learn. Add stress only when needed.

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:28 am I'd say Army targets "pop-up" and are way more realistic than turning targets

My training system is designed to very intentionally reduce the nervousness of students. I have found that is the best way to learn. Add stress only when needed.

clarionite wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:07 am

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:28 am I'd say Army targets "pop-up" and are way more realistic than turning targets

My training system is designed to very intentionally reduce the nervousness of students. I have found that is the best way to learn. Add stress only when needed.

34 years ago at Ft Dix, the pop up targets didn't always catch when they popped up. About a quarter of the time or so they'd flip up and fall. The Drill Sergeant said they'd count as a hit, but quite a few guys barely qualified. So I'm not so sure they did. I'm better with a rifle than a pistol or grenade and I was only marksman in rifle and expert in the others. But the pop up targets are much more fun.

Paladin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 1:38 pm

clarionite wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 10:07 am

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:28 am I'd say Army targets "pop-up" and are way more realistic than turning targets

My training system is designed to very intentionally reduce the nervousness of students. I have found that is the best way to learn. Add stress only when needed.

34 years ago at Ft Dix, the pop up targets didn't always catch when they popped up. About a quarter of the time or so they'd flip up and fall. The Drill Sergeant said they'd count as a hit, but quite a few guys barely qualified. So I'm not so sure they did. I'm better with a rifle than a pistol or grenade and I was only marksman in rifle and expert in the others. But the pop up targets are much more fun.

At Camp Swift they seemed to be in good order, but some claimed they didn't always register a hit... could have been the shooter.

Mike S wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:11 am Your observations are correct. The DPS' course of fire does not mandate what the start position is, so it is up to the instructor to determine.

I don't recall if it was asked during my initial instructor certification or if it was the 2013 renewal class in Georgetown, but the Trooper said that the instructor determines what the start position is, but to be consistent with all the firers on the firing line.

Personally, I have students start from what has become known as the High Compressed Ready, as this mirrors Position 3 of the drawstroke. I have the student do a fair amount of dry fire practice from Position 3 before going live, & just before transitioning to the qualification have them practice the 2-second engagement on a shot timer so they understand how to time the speed of their engagement. This provides the student with multiple live repetitions from Position 3 to 4 during the qualification; if they choose to stick around after the LTC portion is complete or return for follow-on training I'll introduce Position 1 & 2 of the drawstroke to build upon the foundation they've already developed.

That's how I do it, but those that start the students already on target with the finger on the trigger waiting for the start beep of the shot timer aren't technically wrong since the DPS didn't specify a start position as part of the Task/Conditions/Standards. Personally, I'm glad they didn't, because I wouldn't want to water down my methodology if they mandated an 'on target, finger on the trigger ' standard.

Neverpanic1 wrote: ↑Tue May 02, 2023 6:41 am

Mike S wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 7:11 am Your observations are correct. The DPS' course of fire does not mandate what the start position is, so it is up to the instructor to determine.

I don't recall if it was asked during my initial instructor certification or if it was the 2013 renewal class in Georgetown, but the Trooper said that the instructor determines what the start position is, but to be consistent with all the firers on the firing line.

Personally, I have students start from what has become known as the High Compressed Ready, as this mirrors Position 3 of the drawstroke. I have the student do a fair amount of dry fire practice from Position 3 before going live, & just before transitioning to the qualification have them practice the 2-second engagement on a shot timer so they understand how to time the speed of their engagement. This provides the student with multiple live repetitions from Position 3 to 4 during the qualification; if they choose to stick around after the LTC portion is complete or return for follow-on training I'll introduce Position 1 & 2 of the drawstroke to build upon the foundation they've already developed.

That's how I do it, but those that start the students already on target with the finger on the trigger waiting for the start beep of the shot timer aren't technically wrong since the DPS didn't specify a start position as part of the Task/Conditions/Standards. Personally, I'm glad they didn't, because I wouldn't want to water down my methodology if they mandated an 'on target, finger on the trigger ' standard.

Appreciate the feedback !