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I would like to get a few opinions from some other instructors about a student. Had a class over the weekend and everyone was great except one student. First off you know how you can kind of tell a lot about a person by their dress, accessories and their bragging in about 5 minutes or less. Yeah, that was this guy.. Military style backpack, some tactical clothing.. Something about coming up from the boarder where his team was building Trumps wall... So, ok.. a few little flags are going off but nothing serious... We go through the pre range safety briefing and range rules, etc.. My range instructor takes the first group to the range.. (Also, my range instructor has not interfaced with this guy yet, so no pre conceived thoughts... Anyway, about 10 minutes later I see this guy at the back of the room being quite animated with my RSO and is franticly making hand gestures to get me to come back there... So I do and this guy is going off on the other instructor and RSO. He got kicked off the range even before they fired the first round.. Unable to follow instructions, unsafe handling of his weapon, loading rounds backwards. etc... The problem was that he could not understand why he got kicked out.. Which of course afterwards I spoke to the range instructor and found out why as explained above..

So he's pretty agitated and I'm telling him sir, I wasn't on the range so I can't really tell you why, but why don't you go ahead and sit down so we can start the classroom portion and you can at least get that part done and we can reschedule your range quals for another day... He is all I just don't know if I can sit in the class without being disruptive. I need to cool down for a while, I don't want to be combative during your class, etc, etc, etc.. So I'm like sure, I understand. Why don't you leave and cool down and you can reschedule your class, your already paid up...

Fortunately for us he left and hopefully I'll never see him again...

So here is my question... We as instructors have the authority to write to the state letting them know. that we don't recommend a student getting their LTC. We of course have to state our case, etc.. My question is I'm not 100% sure if this guy was just having a bad day or is just not fit to get his LTC.. Personally I wouldn't allow him in my class again, but should I prevent him from any future opportunities for his LTC...

Thoughts

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:07 am I would like to get a few opinions from some other instructors about a student. Had a class over the weekend and everyone was great except one student. First off you know how you can kind of tell a lot about a person by their dress, accessories and their bragging in about 5 minutes or less. Yeah, that was this guy.. Military style backpack, some tactical clothing.. Something about coming up from the boarder where his team was building Trumps wall... So, ok.. a few little flags are going off but nothing serious... We go through the pre range safety briefing and range rules, etc.. My range instructor takes the first group to the range.. (Also, my range instructor has not interfaced with this guy yet, so no pre conceived thoughts... Anyway, about 10 minutes later I see this guy at the back of the room being quite animated with my RSO and is franticly making hand gestures to get me to come back there... So I do and this guy is going off on the other instructor and RSO. He got kicked off the range even before they fired the first round.. Unable to follow instructions, unsafe handling of his weapon, loading rounds backwards. etc... The problem was that he could not understand why he got kicked out.. Which of course afterwards I spoke to the range instructor and found out why as explained above..

So he's pretty agitated and I'm telling him sir, I wasn't on the range so I can't really tell you why, but why don't you go ahead and sit down so we can start the classroom portion and you can at least get that part done and we can reschedule your range quals for another day... He is all I just don't know if I can sit in the class without being disruptive. I need to cool down for a while, I don't want to be combative during your class, etc, etc, etc.. So I'm like sure, I understand. Why don't you leave and cool down and you can reschedule your class, your already paid up...

Fortunately for us he left and hopefully I'll never see him again...

So here is my question... We as instructors have the authority to write to the state letting them know. that we don't recommend a student getting their LTC. We of course have to state our case, etc.. My question is I'm not 100% sure if this guy was just having a bad day or is just not fit to get his LTC.. Personally I wouldn't allow him in my class again, but should I prevent him from any future opportunities for his LTC...

Thoughts

My Training Counselor recommended that I keep cash on hand to give such people an immediate refund and let them know I am not the instructor for them. I don't put it beyond the scope of bad actors to intentionally send someone to disrupt firearms and survival classes. The FBI is know for sending UC's out to monitor such classes.

Paladin, first I have heard of FBI sending plants to our classes. As for Tex1961; as a minimum I would send a letter to RSD stating my concerns about this student with a simple statement of facts and no recommendation. I would also KEEP a copy of the memo. Just my CYA kicking in. Luckily I have only had one student with an attitude similar.

Paladin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:24 am My Training Counselor recommended that I keep cash on hand to give such people an immediate refund and let them know I am not the instructor for them. I don't put it beyond the scope of bad actors to intentionally send someone to disrupt firearms and survival classes. The FBI is know for sending UC's out to monitor such classes.

I’m not an instructor, so maybe my opinion doesn’t count so much, but this cash-on-hand thing sounds like a very good idea to me.

Sounds like he might have been on meth.

AF-Odin wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:53 am Paladin, first I have heard of FBI sending plants to our classes. As for Tex1961; as a minimum I would send a letter to RSD stating my concerns about this student with a simple statement of facts and no recommendation. I would also KEEP a copy of the memo. Just my CYA kicking in. Luckily I have only had one student with an attitude similar.

I'm leaning towards that.. Send a letter from both myself and the range instructor just as a heads up, but no recommendation either way. The RI and The RSO both told me that he had given them some VERY bad looks as he was leaving. The sort of I'm going to do bad things to you look.. Just everything about this guy screamed problem.... I've had some upset students before after failing the range quals, but nothing like this guy...

Based only on what I've read, as Joe Blow on the street, I'd hope this particular guy was never armed anywhere within a few miles of wherever I was. "Everyone has a bad day now and then and this may be one of yours. Here's a full refund for the class and when you are feeling ready again you can sign up again. (Hands cash)" Surprisingly, the class is already full if/when he calls again, every time. I'd personally probably at least do an FYI report to the state, if not an outright rejection suggestion. Add a dollar (or two) and all that is worth a coffee, but it's my Joe Blow thoughts and opinion.

We could use a red flag law.

Waiting on a callback from a supervisor with Regulatory Services. Will forward both mine and the other Instructors observations and get their opinion.

Not an instructor, but as someone walking around in Texas, I would want you to contact the state.

A novice who has never seen or handled a firearm might have trouble until they go through a class learning how to shoot. But your description concerns me more about his anger management and would he be able to de-escalate a situation.

Just got off the phone with a DPS RSD supervisor and per his request did send in a report from both myself, the range instructor and RSO as to the students actions. Per my email I did not request any particular action be taken, however the supervisor did state that they will at least be able to look to see if they have any background history on this person.

We generally have at least one student per class that we ask to leave the range due to being unsafe or unfamiliar with their weapon and therefore a potential liability. We always offer our services for private basic pistol course to help them out. This student went beyond in both repeated safety violations and just basic personality observations from myself and the other instructor and RSO that gave us some concern as to his mental health as it may relate to carrying a firearm.

Was this student under 25 or so?

I have had an experience one time with a paranoid schizophrenic as they are beginning to go down that path.

If this person is that age, that’s when it happens.

Loading bullets backwards, that would be a symptom, everyone being unfair to them. Agitation.

Geez and around loaded guns.

philip964 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:02 pm Was this student under 25 or so?

I have had an experience one time with a paranoid schizophrenic as they are beginning to go down that path.

If this person is that age, that’s when it happens.

Loading bullets backwards, that would be a symptom, everyone being unfair to them. Agitation.

Geez and around loaded guns.

I’d say mid to upper 40’s. Just one of those guys who likes to brag and just immature. For us it was the fact that he couldn’t understand why he got removed from the range. Here is a copy of the range instructors after action email.

We experienced issues with him before we even began the live-fire exercises. He took his weapon out of the box and I informed him that we needed to keep the barrel pointed down-range. From the jump, he was flagging everyone to his left. This made things considerably worse, because he was in lane 5 and had 4 other people to his left.

As we began instructions for the first string of fire, I instructed the line to load 5 rounds into their magazines. This particular person began to load his rounds backwards. I Stepped in and showed him how to load the rounds correctly. He advised that, "it's been a while since I have shot a pistol. I'm used to shooting rifles." My response, "you do know that pistol and rifle rounds are inserted into the magazine the same way, correct?"

Prior to being given instructions to pick up their weapons, he picked it up and once again flagged people to his left with the muzzle. Once again I repeated by saying, "down-range, muzzle down-range." The bigger issue is that he picked up his weapon before being instructed to do so, but also my concern was by how unsafe he went about doing it. I walked up to him and told him that this was his last warning and one more infraction and I would ask him to leave the range.

At that point, I instructed the line to pick up their weapons and to insert their magazines and to load and chamber a round. This proved to be a precarious task as this person had his finger on the trigger the entire time. Before he could chamber a round I stated, "finger off the trigger, finger off the trigger." He did not take his finger off the trigger and before he could load the magazine into his weapon, myself and the RSO stepped in and stopped him. That's when I explained to him that he had too many issues and that perhaps he needed to take a firearms familiarization or gun safety course. He was removed from the lane. Prior to leaving, he walked past me and gave me a look of disdain. I am not someone who is normally shaken, but considering he had an unsecured weapon and ammo at his disposal, I informed the range personnel that the customer should most likely not be allowed to come back to the range area. I gave them a brief description and then continued with the string of fire for the remaining students.

I have nearly twenty years of range experience, and this was by far the scariest thing I have seen on the range. The student's attitude towards instruction, myself, and nonchalance with a firearm were quite alarming. If you need further information, please feel free to reach out to me.

Wow, just wow! That report is very scary. So glad he was not allowed to complete the class.

Joe

mayor wrote: ↑Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:56 pm We could use a red flag law.

Is this a joke?