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With the explosion of red dots on guns including OEM direct from the manufacturer, has there been any movement from RSD/DPS to modernize the qualification shoot restrictions?

Don't know about you, but more and more students are showing up with red dots. When this rule was written, an optic on a handgun was a big complicated affair and it wasn't a 'carry' gun. We need to get with the times.

Me: "The state says you can't use them."
Student: "Why not?"
Me: "...ummmm."

LTC Course Outline, p24:

"No optical enhancers can be used by the student during the proficiency demonstration. (No lasers, holographic sights, scopes, etc.)"

Scott B. wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:35 am With the explosion of red dots on guns including OEM direct from the manufacturer, has there been any movement from RSD/DPS to modernize the qualification shoot restrictions?

Don't know about you, but more and more students are showing up with red dots. When this rule was written, an optic on a handgun was a big complicated affair and it wasn't a 'carry' gun. We need to get with the times.

Me: "The state says you can't use them."
Student: "Why not?"
Me: "...ummmm."

LTC Course Outline, p24:

"No optical enhancers can be used by the student during the proficiency demonstration. (No lasers, holographic sights, scopes, etc.)"

I suspect, with licenses becoming largely meaningless for the general population, you won't see much change to LTC moving forward.

My eyes are so bad. I thought it said quail.

I’m going, “would you really want that?”

It’s going to be tough getting the legislatures attention on that. Plus somebody might try and sneak something bad in.

My opinion is no... at least not yet. Too many students barely have enough skills as it is to pass the quals.. I think anyone who wants to handle a firearm should start out with the basic fundamentals of sight management first.

But I will allow a caveat.. Allow an exception for those that are optically challenged. There could me a medical release form from an optometrist that you could submit....

I'm not an instructor but I'll stick my oar in on this one anyway.

Three decades shooting in USPSA competition formulates two rules of thumb relevant to this issue.

1) compete with what you carry/carry what you compete with to the greatest extent possible.
2) the lower levels of shooters will not gain much (in some cases, just the reverse) by the addition of dots/holo's. Timed fire is about technique, not sighting systems. In IPSC speak; "no competitive advantage gained" for the bottom layer. For the guys above them, they were going to pass the qual anyway.
If DPS wants to be passive aggressive about it, they can OK using glass with a shorter time limit.

Scott,

Agree totally. This is 2021. It's time to modernize the qual.

I've got shooters in their 60's and 70's who's eyesight is not going to improve and who would benefit from red dots or lasers. Lasers on defensive pistols are well established technology as are red dots.

As far as I can tell, this should be a simple administrative action on the part of RSD/DPS. There's no statutory language on optics for LTC.

Our job as instructors is not to tell students what to carry. We all have our opinions.The shoot test is pass/fail. Red dots are not going away and as more and more LE switch to them, the (non competing/recreational shooting) public is going to follow.

The fundamentals still apply, no matter the sighting system. We need to adjust w/ the times and not let our own personal biases hold back those we instruct.

Well, they have already reduced the caliber requirement for the LTC so why not allow any firearm that could be carried. With the ammo shortage, i am seeing more and more students shoot the "Demonstration of Proficiency" with a .22. So far, have not had a single student shooting a .22 NOT qualify. The ones that scare me are not the ones who show up with a Glock/SIG/S&W/Kimber/Canik with a laser or RDS, but the student that shows up with the Hi-Point and a bent front sight.

AF-Odin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:06 pm Well, they have already reduced the caliber requirement for the LTC so why not allow any firearm that could be carried. With the ammo shortage, i am seeing more and more students shoot the "Demonstration of Proficiency" with a .22. So far, have not had a single student shooting a .22 NOT qualify. The ones that scare me are not the ones who show up with a Glock/SIG/S&W/Kimber/Canik with a laser or RDS, but the student that shows up with the Hi-Point and a bent front sight.

I kid you not. Had a lady show up with a borrowed Glock and 50 rounds of loose ammunition in a plastic Walmart bag. All thrown in the bottom. I had to ask her to leave the range when she couldn’t figure out how to release the magazine and then didn’t know how to load the rounds into it.

Tex1961,
Yep, been there and seen that. Had more than one that tried to load the rounds in the mag backwards, one that upon the command "fire" would close her eyes and turn her head sideways (she lasted two rounds before I removed her). We keep telling them that this is NOT a learn to shoot class, that the shooting portion is a demonstration of proficiency (and safety) with a firearm. If they want to learn to shoot, we offer that class as well as one that allows beginners to shoot four or five different handguns, starting with a .22 (Glock 44) for 50 rounds, then a S&W .380EZ for 10 rounds, then a Glock 19 for 10 rounds, and if desired A S&W 4" barrel .38 for 10 rounds. Other options include a Ruger LCR in .38 and a Glock 26. Many students don't want this course, because it is more expensive than the LTC as I am providing the firearms and ammo, but if they took it, they would have a better idea of what firearm would best suit them and have a better chance of passing the LTC demonstration of proficiency.

AF-Odin wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:02 pm Tex1961,
Yep, been there and seen that. Had more than one that tried to load the rounds in the mag backwards, one that upon the command "fire" would close her eyes and turn her head sideways (she lasted two rounds before I removed her). We keep telling them that this is NOT a learn to shoot class, that the shooting portion is a demonstration of proficiency (and safety) with a firearm. If they want to learn to shoot, we offer that class as well as one that allows beginners to shoot four or five different handguns, starting with a .22 (Glock 44) for 50 rounds, then a S&W .380EZ for 10 rounds, then a Glock 19 for 10 rounds, and if desired A S&W 4" barrel .38 for 10 rounds. Other options include a Ruger LCR in .38 and a Glock 26. Many students don't want this course, because it is more expensive than the LTC as I am providing the firearms and ammo, but if they took it, they would have a better idea of what firearm would best suit them and have a better chance of passing the LTC demonstration of proficiency.

LOL. I know...

My favorites so far..
Older gentlemen who's 1911 was probably born the same year taking head shots until my RSO stopped him.
Multiple students loading bullets in backwards
Full Mag dumps when they were supposed to be firing 1 at a time
And my best question so far... So after I get my LTC I can carry on the plane....

Like you I send out a very detailed email before class and in Bold, red flashing neon letters explain that this is a proficiency class, NOT a training class.. But they don't read or comprehend apparently... Oh well... Now I see why the state gives them 3 chances....

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:22 pm LOL. I know...
My favorites so far..
Older gentlemen who's 1911 was probably born the same year taking head shots until my RSO stopped him.
Multiple students loading bullets in backwards
Full Mag dumps when they were supposed to be firing 1 at a time
And my best question so far... So after I get my LTC I can carry on the plane....
Like you I send out a very detailed email before class and in Bold, red flashing neon letters explain that this is a proficiency class, NOT a training class.. But they don't read or comprehend apparently... Oh well... Now I see why the state gives them 3 chances....

Certainly; as long as it's YOUR PLANE!

I carry on mine all the time.

We've all seen inexperienced shooters try to shoot with a laser and it didn't help them

Red dots are no different and the sole advantage they might have (over traditional iron sights) is a single plane of focus.

Everything still comes down to trigger-control once the sight - in whatever form it takes - is aligned, so my opinion is allow them (and lasers and the kitchen sink if they want).

Sig sent me a free laser for my wife's P238 after they sent it to a gun shop Alaska in error after a repair (true story.) I really liked the laser for indoor training with the little Sig. I would compare my iron sight view with the laser. Eventually I developed pretty good muscle memory to get the Sig on target. Even with a green laser Streamlight on another Sig, the dot is basically invisible in daylight.

AndyC1911 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:44 pm We've all seen inexperienced shooters try to shoot with a laser and it didn't help them

Red dots are no different and the sole advantage they might have (over traditional iron sights) is a single plane of focus.

Everything still comes down to trigger-control once the sight - in whatever form it takes - is aligned, so my opinion is allow them (and lasers and the kitchen sink if they want).

The only time I’ve ever a shot a handgun with a laser sight, I was already a fairly experienced shooter, and I gave it up. My wife’s first pistol was a S&W 642 with Crimson Trace grips that I gave her for Valentine’s Day back in 2008. For the life of me, I could NOT stop chasing that red dot all over the target. When I turned the daggum thing off and went back to using the rudimentary open sights, the problem went away completely. I’ve avoided lasers on handguns ever since.

I have yet to shoot a pistol with an RDS, but my sense is that it would be a lot more like using irons than it would be like using a laser. I could be wrong, but that’s my impression. For the record, I love a RDS on a carbine; and out to at least 50 yards, I shoot a carbine with an RDS about as well as I do with a magnified optic, and a little better with an RDS than I do with irons. So at typical handgun distances—say 25 yards and under—I don’t think an RDS-mounted pistol would be that big of a problem. Again, I could be wrong, but that’s my impression.