Got an email from DPS today about Instructor Renewal

[6 Point Star]

Perhaps someone certified by one of the well-known national schools like:

Suarez International Staff Instructor
Rob Pincus' I.C.E. Certified Training Instructors

Thanks, but I think both of those would be a little intense for most of my students and me as well since Charles thinks you would have to teach that course to your students. Just looking for something other than NRA since I no longer have my TCLOSE commission.

Jerry

[Lucky]

(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or

OK, Thanks, I did not read it that way. "Regularly instructs others in the use of handguns" did not specifically say that it had to be that course to me.

A good argument can be made if you were NRA certified once upon a time and it expired but you regularly teach CHL classes, you meet the requirements in the letter of the law. I'm not sure DPS would see it that way. If not, it probably costs less time and money to get recertified by the NRA than win that arguement with DPS.

[Charles L. Cotton]

(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or

OK, Thanks, I did not read it that way. "Regularly instructs others in the use of handguns" did not specifically say that it had to be that course to me.

A good argument can be made if you were NRA certified once upon a time and it expired but you regularly teach CHL classes, you meet the requirements in the letter of the law. I'm not sure DPS would see it that way. If not, it probably costs less time and money to get recertified by the NRA than win that arguement with DPS.

Unfortunately, the CHL course is not "instruct[ing] in the use of handguns" as required by §411.190(a)(2). It's clear that to use the "other" category, you must be regularly teaching people how to shoot handguns and the CHL course doesn't meet that requirement.

Chas.

[6 Point Star]

Unfortunately, the CHL course is not "instruct[ing] in the use of handguns" as required by §411.190(a)(2). It's clear that to use the "other" category, you must be regularly teaching people how to shoot handguns and the CHL course doesn't meet that requirement.

I agree with that completely, but that is also why I felt it was strange that pistol instruction is now required to teach CHL. I remember the instructor telling me the CHL Class was not designed to teach people to shoot. I did feel that my teaching a separate "Handgun 101" class as well as doing a IPSC Club new shooter orientation almost every month did qualify as "instructing". I sent the question to DPS so maybe someday I will see what they say. Maybe I am just way off base.

Jerry

[switch]

Tom Givens @ Rangemasters in Memphis offers a 3 day 'instructor course'.

Just because you were trained by Givens (or Suarez), does NOT mean that you have to train all your students to that level. Just have to hold regular training.

Incidentally, I understand that Suarez does NOT teach you to keep you finger outside the trigger guard (along the frame) like most instructors. For that reason, I'd be reluctant to train w/him.

[6 Point Star]

Tom Givens @ Rangemasters in Memphis offers a 3 day 'instructor course'.

Just because you were trained by Givens (or Suarez), does NOT mean that you have to train all your students to that level. Just have to hold regular training.

Incidentally, I understand that Suarez does NOT teach you to keep you finger outside the trigger guard (along the frame) like most instructors. For that reason, I'd be reluctant to train w/him.

Courses like these is what I was questioning since most I have seen have no expiration on the Instructor certifications. NRA seems to be unique in this part of their program yet 411.190 seems to make this important. Always figured with NRA it was all about money. I do not remember my TCLOSE Firearms Instructor license having a expiration except that you still had to have a law enforcement certification to be current. The "other " category is not clear as to what it is intended as it only requires you to be "graduated" not current. Under that definition even people who had NRA certification and let it expire still "graduated" from the instructor course. I know that there is no way to really figure this out unless we were able to know who wrote this into the law when it went from 4413(29ee) to 411.190 and what they intended or we get an ruling from DPS.

Jerry

[Charles L. Cotton]

Tom Givens @ Rangemasters in Memphis offers a 3 day 'instructor course'.

Just because you were trained by Givens (or Suarez), does NOT mean that you have to train all your students to that level. Just have to hold regular training.

Incidentally, I understand that Suarez does NOT teach you to keep you finger outside the trigger guard (along the frame) like most instructors. For that reason, I'd be reluctant to train w/him.

I know that there is no way to really figure this out unless we were able to know who wrote this into the law when it went from 4413(29ee) to 411.190 and what they intended or we get an ruling from DPS.

Jerry

That provision was in SB60 that passed in 1995 and became 4413(29ee). (See Section 18 of the attached bill.) This language didn't change when 4413(29ee) was codified into the Government Code as part of Chapter 411 (specifically §411.190).

The intent was to certify people to teach the CHL course only if they are already handgun instructors. TCLEOSE was recognized because the LEOs wanted it so. The NRA was included because there are far more NRA Instructors than all other instructors combined, so this increased the CHL instructor pool making it easier for people to find instructors. The "other" category was added simply because some felt that there were or could be other certifications that should be recognized. Since this is a nebulous, undefined area and no one would really know what had been the course of instruction required to obtain "certification," instructors had to prove that they were regularly instructing on the use of handguns.

Again, this is nothing new; it was just missed by DPS in the rush to get the program set up and running. Those that followed the original DPS crew had no reason to suspect that instructor qualifications had been missed. When I was first certified as a CHL instructor, I sent in my NRA credentials and had no idea DPS wasn't requiring this for all instructors. I learned of it only recently.

Chas.

Sec. 18. QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS. (a) The director may certify as a qualified handgun instructor a person who:

• (1) is certified by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education or the Texas Board of Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies to instruct others in the use of handguns;
  (2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or
  (3) is certified by the National Rifle Association of America as a handgun instructor.

[switch]

Originally, if you were already teaching handgun courses, you only had to take a 28 hour course. You got to go home Wed afternoon. I did not realize that applied to NRA certified instructors too. :(

[6 Point Star]

SB60, Section 18 wrote:
Sec. 18. QUALIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS. (a) The director may certify as a qualified handgun instructor a person who:
(1) is certified by the Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education or the Texas Board of Private Investigators and Private Security Agencies to instruct others in the use of handguns;
(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or
(3) is certified by the National Rifle Association of America as a handgun instructor.

I have had printed copy of SB60 in my briefcase since it was passed and I thought I had read it all, apparently not! Yep it is in there. I guess I missed it also.

Jerry

[o b juan]

(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or

My question has been since this whole thing started back a few months ago; I the Texas DPS CHL school I attended for 5 days in Aug 1995 and I day every 2 years since then until 2009 not enough??
not even counting the several thousand students I have trained in 17 and a half years .
I have my Insurance that NRA chose( Lockton) that protects me.

I will find the right place and time to do the NRA class, but it really seems like a waste.. However you never get to old for learning something new

[RottenApple]

(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or

My question has been since this whole thing started back a few months ago; I the Texas DPS CHL school I attended for 5 days in Aug 1995 and I day every 2 years since then until 2009 not enough??
not even counting the several thousand students I have trained in 17 and a half years .
I have my Insurance that NRA chose( Lockton) that protects me.

I will find the right place and time to do the NRA class, but it really seems like a waste.. However you never get to old for learning something new

As has been stated several times, the CHL class is not "instructing in the use of a handgun". So it doesn't really matter (for this requirement) how many CHL classes you have taught. They didn't meet the qualification.

[o b juan]

Just a couple of things to expand on what I posted..

It is surprising to me that TEXAS DPS pistol range and instructors are not Nationally Recognised. We did the extra 2 days that the NRA Instructors didnt have to. I cant remember what they missed by leaving early.

And we as instructors have in the past had to train the student in proper safety and proficeincy with a handgun which is a part of the course

I plan on taking the NRA course regadless as I said neever hurts to get more information..

[Charles L. Cotton]

(2) regularly instructs others in the use of handguns and has graduated from a handgun instructor school that uses a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors; or

My question has been since this whole thing started back a few months ago; I the Texas DPS CHL school I attended for 5 days in Aug 1995 and I day every 2 years since then until 2009 not enough??

No it's not, because it isn't "a nationally accepted course designed to train persons as handgun instructors." It's a course to train you to be a CHL instructor and the majority of the course is classroom, not on the range. In fact, all you do on the range is prove that you can score 90% with a semi-auto and revolver. There's not one minute spent teaching CHL instructor candidates how to teach others to shoot.

I have my Insurance that NRA chose( Lockton) that protects me.

I will find the right place and time to do the NRA class, but it really seems like a waste.. However you never get to old for learning something new

If you have NRA insurance you must have some NRA credentials. Do you just not have NRA pistol certification?

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

It is surprising to me that TEXAS DPS pistol range and instructors are not Nationally Recognised.

The instructor training program must be nationally recognized, not those teaching it.

Chas.

[o b juan]

If you have NRA insurance you must have some NRA credentials. Do you just not have NRA pistol certification?

Chas.
I do not have nra pistol certification

The policy I have is a firearms instructor . I can not put my hands on it right now, I think it is in the lock box @ bank.

I have also for a number of years had the Hunting Guide Ins. thru NRA