Strange call from "Regulatory services."

[wgoforth]

Wayne - I am pretty sure no one from DPS is out to get you. Really. They have not had resources to do routine audits in the past. Looks like maybe they do have that in the budget now.

Things have changed and those who have not kept up need to be given a chance to make corrections. Not everyone who teaches is on the forum. Not all the info has been conveyed (or remembered) from the instructor renewal classes. Lets just get everyboday back on the same page, and go from there. I doubt you have anything to worry about as a new instructor. Think about those who need to organize three years worth of records, if they have not been keeping them.

Oh I'm not taking it personally. After confirming, I found that it is happening to all. Just doesn't make sense to me that they "want to see a copy of my cert" since they are the ones issuing.

[Keith B]

Is it possible when you talked to her on the phone she said they needed to see your 'certification' of proficiency? See below

Texas Administrative Code

TITLE 37 PUBLIC SAFETY AND CORRECTIONS
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 6 LICENSE TO CARRY HANDGUNS
SUBCHAPTER G CERTIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS
RULE §6.87 Instructor Record Retention

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a) Records to be retained and available for inspection. A certified handgun instructor shall make available for inspection to the department any and all records maintained by a certified handgun instructor under the Act. A certified handgun instructor shall retain the following:
(1) a record of each document reflecting the instructor's certification of proficiency as provided in §6.11(d) of this title (relating to Proficiency Requirements);
(2) a record of each license applicant who has applied for instruction, whether accepted or rejected for instruction;
(3) post-test scores;
(4) written critiques or notes made by the instructor;
(5) proficiency demonstrations;
(6) course materials; and
(7) copies of reports submitted to the department.
(b) Records must be retained for a period of three years after completion. Records must be stored in a safe and secure place and must be available for inspection by authorized officers of the department.

[sjfcontrol]

Is it possible when you talked to her on the phone she said they needed to see your 'certification' of proficiency? See below

Texas Administrative Code

TITLE 37 PUBLIC SAFETY AND CORRECTIONS
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 6 LICENSE TO CARRY HANDGUNS
SUBCHAPTER G CERTIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS
RULE §6.87 Instructor Record Retention

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a) Records to be retained and available for inspection. A certified handgun instructor shall make available for inspection to the department any and all records maintained by a certified handgun instructor under the Act. A certified handgun instructor shall retain the following:
(1) a record of each document reflecting the instructor's certification of proficiency as provided in §6.11(d) of this title (relating to Proficiency Requirements);
(2) a record of each license applicant who has applied for instruction, whether accepted or rejected for instruction;
(3) post-test scores;
(4) written critiques or notes made by the instructor;
(5) proficiency demonstrations;
(6) course materials; and
(7) copies of reports submitted to the department.
(b) Records must be retained for a period of three years after completion. Records must be stored in a safe and secure place and must be available for inspection by authorized officers of the department.

And what precisely would that be for any current instructor? I don't believe anybody has yet been qualified by another instructor, and DPS did not give me anything other than the certificate. (And a password on a fortune-cookie paper.)

[tacticool]

What's so bad about DPS making sure instructors are keeping the required records and teaching the required subjects?

[Keith B]

Is it possible when you talked to her on the phone she said they needed to see your 'certification' of proficiency? See below

Texas Administrative Code

TITLE 37 PUBLIC SAFETY AND CORRECTIONS
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 6 LICENSE TO CARRY HANDGUNS
SUBCHAPTER G CERTIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS
RULE §6.87 Instructor Record Retention

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a) Records to be retained and available for inspection. A certified handgun instructor shall make available for inspection to the department any and all records maintained by a certified handgun instructor under the Act. A certified handgun instructor shall retain the following:
(1) a record of each document reflecting the instructor's certification of proficiency as provided in §6.11(d) of this title (relating to Proficiency Requirements);
(2) a record of each license applicant who has applied for instruction, whether accepted or rejected for instruction;
(3) post-test scores;
(4) written critiques or notes made by the instructor;
(5) proficiency demonstrations;
(6) course materials; and
(7) copies of reports submitted to the department.
(b) Records must be retained for a period of three years after completion. Records must be stored in a safe and secure place and must be available for inspection by authorized officers of the department.

And what precisely would that be for any current instructor? I don't believe anybody has yet been qualified by another instructor, and DPS did not give me anything other than the certificate. (And a password on a fortune-cookie paper.)

Since it says 'a record of each document....' I don't believe they are talking about the certification for the instructor, but the records where the instructor has kept showing they certified the student shooting proficiency. Didn't they used to have a score sheet you filled out for each student, but no longer keep? Maybe that is what the code was referring to? Today that would be CHL-100's and the CHL-8's

[wgoforth]

Is it possible when you talked to her on the phone she said they needed to see your 'certification' of proficiency? See below

Texas Administrative Code

TITLE 37 PUBLIC SAFETY AND CORRECTIONS
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 6 LICENSE TO CARRY HANDGUNS
SUBCHAPTER G CERTIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS
RULE §6.87 Instructor Record Retention

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a) Records to be retained and available for inspection. A certified handgun instructor shall make available for inspection to the department any and all records maintained by a certified handgun instructor under the Act. A certified handgun instructor shall retain the following:
(1) a record of each document reflecting the instructor's certification of proficiency as provided in §6.11(d) of this title (relating to Proficiency Requirements);
(2) a record of each license applicant who has applied for instruction, whether accepted or rejected for instruction;
(3) post-test scores;
(4) written critiques or notes made by the instructor;
(5) proficiency demonstrations;
(6) course materials; and
(7) copies of reports submitted to the department.
(b) Records must be retained for a period of three years after completion. Records must be stored in a safe and secure place and must be available for inspection by authorized officers of the department.

Nope, in fact.... her first wording was she wanted to see a copy of my "instructors license." I asked her if she was talking about the instructors certification which they gave me in Jan. She said yes. I then told her that didn't make sense to me, as they were the issuers and that I just received them in Jan and that they should have access on their end. She said she understood, but just "wanted to make sure nothing had changed." I asked "like what? It's a paper certificate." She didn't answer. As I say, I will comply....just doesn't make sense to me. That being said, is it possible she herself didn't have a clue? YES...esp when for some reason she thought I lived in San Angelo (never have) and when she heard that, she began asking "well did you ever live there? Were you there when you took the class?" etc. Then she quickly said "Well I can't audit you then, I will have to contact someone in Brownwood."

[sjfcontrol]

Since it says 'a record of each document....' I don't believe they are talking about the certification for the instructor, but the records where the instructor has kept showing they certified the student shooting proficiency. Didn't they used to have a score sheet you filled out for each student, but no longer keep? Maybe that is what the code was referring to? Today that would be CHL-100's and the CHL-8's

Well, not since I've been an instructor. The only score sheet I've seen was at the DPS range. I presume they had the same card at your training. 3x5 i think, signed by the student and the scorer, as I recall. They kept it. THere was no discussion (that I recall) about keeping anything similar for our students.
I took my class July of 2010.

[Keith B]

Since it says 'a record of each document....' I don't believe they are talking about the certification for the instructor, but the records where the instructor has kept showing they certified the student shooting proficiency. Didn't they used to have a score sheet you filled out for each student, but no longer keep? Maybe that is what the code was referring to? Today that would be CHL-100's and the CHL-8's

Well, not since I've been an instructor. The only score sheet I've seen was at the DPS range. I presume they had the same card at your training. 3x5 i think, signed by the student and the scorer, as I recall. They kept it. THere was no discussion (that I recall) about keeping anything similar for our students.
I took my class July of 2010.

I am not sure, but believe back in the early days they did before they told everyone to stop keeping scores and go to pass/fail only.

[steven8669]

In my instructor class last year I remember them saying to keep copies of the test but that we did not have to keep scores for the shooting portion. I have kept all the student tests, copies of the CHL-100, CHL-7, & CHL-8. I hope that is enough.

[Greybeard]

Many years ago, we briefly used a score sheet DPS provided on 8 1/2 X 11" paper, but were never given or used the type of cards that are used at instructor schools.

[Greybeard]

Quote: "Think about those who need to organize three years worth of records, if they have not been keeping them."

When the change was made for renewal licenses to be good for 5 years, our instructor renewal class was told we would need to be keeping records for ..... 5 years ....

[wgoforth]

Quote: "Think about those who need to organize three years worth of records, if they have not been keeping them."

When the change was made for renewal licenses to be good for 5 years, our instructor renewal class was told we would need to be keeping records for ..... 5 years ....

Incorrect... the Instructor Notebook received in the Jan 2012 class on pg 41 says "Records must be kept by the instructor for three years." Also, when I spoke to Deidra Neely at Regulatory Services a couple of weeks ago, she specified they would be asking questions questions you should already know like "How long must you keep records...which is 3 years."

[wgoforth]

Am I understanding some to be saying we are required to keep an actual written test score of the students written test? My understanding was we send in pass/fail and that if we decide to keep their test answer sheet, then we must hold onto it for 3 years; otherwise shred.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Am I understanding some to be saying we are required to keep an actual written test score of the students written test? My understanding was we send in pass/fail and that if we decide to keep their test answer sheet, then we must hold onto it for 3 years; otherwise shred.

Until and unless DPS makes an official change in policy, I'm doing what I was told to do in the Instructor class on multiple occasions. I'm keeping only the CHL-100's as they show that the student passed both the classroom and range portion of the class.

Chas.

[wgoforth]

Am I understanding some to be saying we are required to keep an actual written test score of the students written test? My understanding was we send in pass/fail and that if we decide to keep their test answer sheet, then we must hold onto it for 3 years; otherwise shred.

Until and unless DPS makes an official change in policy, I'm doing what I was told to do in the Instructor class on multiple occasions. I'm keeping only the CHL-100's as they show that the student passed both the classroom and range portion of the class.

Chas.

Thank you Mr Cotton. I did not understand anything in the Jan class that required me to keep scores.