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Police responding to a report of a possible burglary at a bar on Dixie Farm Road in southeast Houston early this morning shot at the bar owner. Police said that the bar owner pointed a handgun at them. Two officers fired one shot each and missed.

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Did someone use the phrase "liars' contest" recently?

- Jim

that bar is just down the street from where I live... wow...

Might be a good thing for the officers to do a little meet and greet with the owners of any late night establishments in the area. I had a buddy that owned a bar and it was highly unusual for him to get out of there before 4-5 am by the time the band broke down and he got everything counted and locked down.

Thank goodness the guys weren't better shots. Any bar owner with a brain is going to be armed when he leaves with the nights receipts. My buddy had a 4" Smith mod 66 on him, a Remington Pump in the bar and another sheathed in the seatcover of his truck in the parking lot. And this was in the 70's. Never was robbed but had some spooky moments.

One of the problems with modern-day police practice is that the officers spend most of their time either in an office or in vehicles and don't know their "constituents" or whatever the denizens are called. A beat can contain tens of thousands of residents and even more transients in a big city like Houston.

I am far from the first to make this observation.

Then you have the "fog of war" that occurs when events unfold quickly in darkness.

Let me be the first to point out in this thread that anyone can put on a blue or black shirt and yell, "Police, open up!" as a prelude to robbery. That seems to happen often enough to be a worry to law-abiding citizens who might be the target of such a robbery or home invasion.

- Jim

Typically, Smith said, officers involved in shooting cases are placed on three days' desk duty, but these officers will remain on full duty because no one was injured.

so they MISSED and because they're bad shots they get to stay on the street, whereas a cop who is a good shot would be forced to desk duty? Not intending to disparage the officers involved; just questioning the logic of the PD's decision.

Something I hadn't considered: So if you own a 51% establishment, by the fact you own it you're not subject to the 51% law on your own premises? That would make sense to me, I just never considered it. Likewise, I wonder if the owner would be able to give written permission to his bartenders to carry. Anyone know?

austinrealtor wrote:so they MISSED and because they're bad shots they get to stay on the street, whereas a cop who is a good shot would be forced to desk duty?

Never let policy get in the way of common sense.

Every law-enforcement agency that I know of puts officers on administrative duty or leave when they shoot someone. I can see reasons for such a policy that I will not argue with.

As far as missing, there seems to be a common opinion in this forum that hitting a moving person or animal at night under stress should be as easy as hitting armless, inanimate paper silhouettes that stand there innocently waiting to be shot. It ain't. Justified police shootings rarely have a hit rate as high as 50%.

- Jim

74novaman wrote:Something I hadn't considered: So if you own a 51% establishment, by the fact you own it you're not subject to the 51% law on your own premises?

Correct. This exception has been written into the law for decades.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:

austinrealtor wrote:so they MISSED and because they're bad shots they get to stay on the street, whereas a cop who is a good shot would be forced to desk duty?

Never let policy get in the way of common sense.

Every law-enforcement agency that I know of puts officers on administrative duty or leave when they shoot someone. I can see reasons for such a policy that I will not argue with.

As far as missing, there seems to be a common opinion in this forum that hitting a moving person or animal at night under stress should be as easy as hitting armless, inanimate paper silhouettes that stand there innocently waiting to be shot. It ain't. Justified police shootings rarely have a hit rate as high as 50%.

- Jim

Jim, I didn't mean to imply the officers were derilict in their duty for missing with their shots (I realize my "bad shots" reference probably muddled this - was using that phrase for dramatic effect). I likely would've missed too (I missed a few cardboard bad guys this morning in broad daylight). And I fully understand the need to put officers on restricted duty or leave after a shooting. My point was that it seems illogical to NOT put an officer on leave just because the officer's bullets missed the intended target. The more logical policy would be the same reaction any time an officer discharges a weapon while on duty.

The policy to allow an officer to continue regular duty because he missed is what I'm questioning.

austinrealtor wrote:The policy to allow an officer to continue regular duty because he missed is what I'm questioning.

There is quite a bit of difference between actually shooting a person (homicide or aggravated assault, depending) and shooting and missing.

Though this is an interesting question. Under normal circumstances, a non-LEO even trying to shoot a person is several kinds of felony (attempted murder, aggravated assault, or deadly conduct). The police seem to get a mulligan in this department. Probably they need to, if they are going to be able to do their job.

Maybe they get razzed at the station. Maybe they claim they fired "warning shots." Maybe they have to go for training. I dunno.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:

austinrealtor wrote:The policy to allow an officer to continue regular duty because he missed is what I'm questioning.

There is quite a bit of difference between actually shooting a person (homicide or aggravated assault, depending) and shooting and missing.
- Jim

Not really, it's only a couple of inches really.

seamusTX wrote:[Justified police shootings rarely have a hit rate as high as 50%.

Do you know what the average rate is? I've heard something like 20%.

It's a random number. There are far too many factors such as number of assailants, officer experience, lighting or lack thereof, the need to be careful of the background, etc., etc.

It also probably depends upon who is paying for and writing the report and their motivations.

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I'll say it again: if you think it's easy, just try shooting trap. And if you think a "scattergun" sprays death and destruction without the need to aim, see the previous sentence.

Hitting a moving target with a centerfire pistol is very difficult.

- Jim