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I was at an indoor range in PA when two off duty LEO's set up in the booth next to me. Could tell they were LEO because they came in with the Sam Brown belts and holsters in hand. I gathered from their conversation that the one was going to be instructing the other.
They hooked up a silhouette and sent it down to about 15 feet. The one I judged to be the "new guy" fired his Glock 9mm and the shot hit about 2 inches left outside the silhouette and about 6 inches down from the shoulder. His second shot was about an inch closer in and about 2 inches higher, but STILL outside the silhouette.
In the meantime I had sent a small bullseye target down to the same distance.
Now, I ain't making a claim that I'm some super shooter, but I had been practicing rapid fire with my Para-Ordinance P14-45 for a while and was getting pretty proficient at it. So I whipped off a 5 shot volley in about 3.5 seconds and reeled in the target. You could have covered all 5 hits with the palm of you hand.
At the time I was a little bit shaggy haired so who knows what the LEO's were thinking about me. But I saw two heads and two sets of eyeballs peer around the partition and look me over, then slowly draw back into their own booth. I swear it was like some cartoon, I almost bust out laughing.

I think that image is going to be with me until the day I die.

I had a similar situation some years ago, prior to getting my CHL. I was living and working in California, and a buddy of mine and I had joined an indoor range in Bakersfield to keep our skills up until we got back to Texas. We had to rent our guns from them, but it wasn't that bad at all. Anyway, we're in the booth, with a B-27 target down range and I picked up the Walther P-99 we had for the day (too bad only 10 round mags in Kalifornia) and ripped off all 10 rounds. It was two sets of three, and one of four, pretty quick like, but not panic fire or anything. The "range pro", an off duty LEO, come up and says, "I see you're shooting a handgun, at a police style target, so I guess you're practicing for self defense?"
"Yup"
"Sooooo....why would you empty the entire magazine all at once?"
"Well, he never fell down, seems like still a threat to me, so I kept shooting, besides, I gave him a half second or so between shots to fall."
He laughed and said, "You boys are from Texas huh?"
Turns out he was too, we struck up a conversation and became friends. He'd give some pointers, we'd listen. That was a fun summer.

I have found that law enforcement and accurate shooting have VERY little in common. There are definite exceptions, but as a rule I would say they shoot like the average person. Their brains get them out of alot more trouble than the gun ever will.

Jason

Jason,
not to disparage LEO's but I remember reading an article some years back where they did a comparison of police shootings versus civilian shootings. It was found that the LEO's were only hitting their targets something like 11% of the time, while civilians were hitting theirs at around 82%. Maybe us civvies were practicing more?
Now this was some years back, so I'm gonna say they've improved since then.

Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentage people, you should be perfectly comfortable. ~Bobby Bragan, 1963

Those who practice will win....no matter what the game.

Jason

Three statisticians were duck hunting one weekend, and after some time, they finally spotted their quarry overhead. The first statistician raised his shotgun and fired. **BLAM** He missed. "Too high, I reckon," he lamented. The second statistician quickly raised and fired as well. **BLAM** He missed as well. "Too low, I suppose", he mumbled. The third statistician was proudly grinning from ear-to-ear. "Your shot was too high," he said. "And your yours too low. That means we got 'im, right?"

jbirds1210 wrote:I have found that law enforcement and accurate shooting have VERY little in common. There are definite exceptions, but as a rule I would say they shoot like the average person. Their brains get them out of alot more trouble than the gun ever will. Jason

I would not want the major hiring criteria of a police department to be based on marksmanship.

The county guys used to come in and shoot during our weekely bowling pin matches. They'd come struttin' in carrying their duty bags with all of their gear, set it down and proceed to dig out their Sigs and load up. After the first heat, we sent them all packing and we enjoyed the rest of the match. They were all nice guys, they just didn't shoot very well..

Bob Landry wrote:The county guys used to come in and shoot during our weekely bowling pin matches. They'd come struttin' in carrying their duty bags with all of their gear, set it down and proceed to dig out their Sigs and load up. After the first heat, we sent them all packing and we enjoyed the rest of the match. They were all nice guys, they just didn't shoot very well..

You work at Shooter's Station, don't you? I'm guessing by the story. I shoot there sometimes. On one occasion there was an officer two down from me practicing and he was using a silhouette style target and it was pasted from top to bottom in the paint, but it was also as wide as it was with no discernible groupings. I was drilling a three inch hole in the paper at the same distance. The IDPA practice matches pays off in spades. Not all of them are that bad, I just think more of regular shooters group (pun intended) together more often and practice.

I recently took my CHL class from a LEO. During the shooting test, there were some guys that ended up with a large 2-3" hole where almost all their shots went.

The LEO commented afterward that being that accurate isn't all that important (assuming of course that you don't miss completely). I was rather amused when he said that if you put 2 shots in a BG in the exact same spot, all you're doing is putting the second bullet in the same hole that the first bullet made. He said is was actually better to be a little off so that you make 2 holes instead of one.

dleewo wrote:I recently took my CHL class from a LEO. During the shooting test, there were some guys that ended up with a large 2-3" hole where almost all their shots went.

The LEO commented afterward that being that accurate isn't all that important (assuming of course that you don't miss completely). I was rather amused when he said that if you put 2 shots in a BG in the exact same spot, all you're doing is putting the second bullet in the same hole that the first bullet made. He said is was actually better to be a little off so that you make 2 holes instead of one.

Yes, but being able to place your shots where you want them to go means that you CAN make as many holes as you wish WHEN you wish to do so...

PBratton wrote:

dleewo wrote:I recently took my CHL class from a LEO. During the shooting test, there were some guys that ended up with a large 2-3" hole where almost all their shots went.

The LEO commented afterward that being that accurate isn't all that important (assuming of course that you don't miss completely). I was rather amused when he said that if you put 2 shots in a BG in the exact same spot, all you're doing is putting the second bullet in the same hole that the first bullet made. He said is was actually better to be a little off so that you make 2 holes instead of one.

Yes, but being able to place your shots where you want them to go means that you CAN make as many holes as you wish WHEN you wish to do so...

If your group is good....blowing a 2-3" hole through a BG should be sufficient for most BG's to pay attention! Just saying.

dleewo wrote:I was rather amused when he said that if you put 2 shots in a BG in the exact same spot, all you're doing is putting the second bullet in the same hole that the first bullet made. He said is was actually better to be a little off so that you make 2 holes instead of one.

Technically speaking, he's absolutely correct. Especially with handgun rounds, which are relatively underpowered compared to almost all rifles, stopping the threat physiologically is most often going to be the result of a rapid drop in blood pressure (orthostatic hypotension) caused by the loss of blood (hypovolemia). That's why the myth of the "one shot stop" with a handgun is, well, a myth. You'd either have to hit the ol' computer itself (the brain stem or cerebellum), or severely damage the upper portions of the spinal cord to cause an immediate shut-down.

So, depending upon where the holes are, the analogy that a five-gallon gas can will drain faster with two holes in it as opposed to one is, from a practical standpoint, valid. It's also the biggest reason that, in a life-and-death situation, we're taught to keep shooting until the threat stops.

'Course, the amusing part is another myth: Robin Hood never split the arrow. Being able to place one bullet precisely through the same hole as the previous one is pretty darned difficult on a two-dimensional, stationary, paper target. In any sort of defensive or combat situation where things are moving--certainly the target that just took a hit--it's all but impossible.

I'm going to climb back on my soapbox of realistic defensive distances for a sec. A whole bunch of evidence tells us that, if you ever have to use your concealed handgun in an urban setting, the encounter will most likely be at a distance less than 20 feet, probably from direct contact to 10 feet.

Yet very few CHLers train at those distances...or even know how to properly do so. I'm not saying precise marksmanship isn't important: regardless of the distance, only good hits count. Tight grouping with a handgun at 25 or 35 yards is good marksmanship, but isn't really a defensive skill.

Not sayin' don't train for marksmanship and a long-distance contingency, only that a 25-yard handgun engagement is far less likely than a contact-distance to 10 feet encounter. My opinion is that the vast majority of a CHL's practice should be within that 10- or 15-foot circle, but from experience it's more likely to be stationary slow-fire at 7, 15, or 25 yards.

Just my two cents; and all this, BTW, is separate from the matter of any "shooter" not being able to punch holes in a B27 silhouette 7 yards away...