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The other evening the wife and I were going home to Allen on Jupiter Rd. For those not familiar it is a 3 lane each direction, posted 35mph and is a mix of residential and commercial areas. The traffic for the most part was what I consider moderate.

My wife was driving and was in the lane next to curb and we were the slowest car in the group of a dozen or so who had just gotten the green light at the previous intersection. In fact we got a polite "flip off" from a motorcycle rider who came up behind us and did quick move to the left across all the lanes while doing what I guess to be 70+ mph. Well she says "Oh no" and respond with a unconcerned now what. She says we are getting pulled over.

This is the first time in several years that we have been stopped at all for anything. She has the licenses and ins. card ready when the officer gets to her window. He looks it over and asks if she is carrying at this time. She responds with a very polite, yet confident "Yes I am, it is in my purse. And if it matters my husband is also carrying." (not sure if that was necessary, but I think all in all is the proper thing to do at the time) He asks us to both place our guns on the dash facing the windshield, we both comply.

He then asks if she knows why she was stopped and she answers "No I do not". He tells her that she was doing 62 in a 35. This is where it gets interesting. She tells him that she was doing 37mph and she knows that for a fact - The car is an 04 Vette and has the digital "heads up display" so she knew exactly how fast she was going - He questions how she knew that is when she explained the display feature of the car. He goes back to his car for less than a minute and returns to our car the licenses and card and tell her to slow it down in the future. And to be sure to take the guns off the dash before we drive away.

He was polite and professional so no complaints on that part. In my mind, and I maybe totally wrong in thinking so, but was it just that he picked us out to pull over based on the type of car?

he prolly radared the motorscooter, but perhaps only saw your vehicle in that lane. who knows.
as for the wife saying that you were armed, too, I don't know that I would advocate that info.
my point of view is that info should be related only as it pertains to the person being asked.
meaning I wouldn't divulge any "extra" info. the cop asks your passenger for their license, then yeah, let them answer.
jmo.

glad ya'll didn't get a ticket, in the end.

It is possible that he stopped you because of what you drive. It's also possible that he clocked the bike that passed you, and thought it was you.

I find it funny that he told your wife to slow down, even though she was quite sure she wasn't speeding.

Actually, she readily confessed that she WAS speeding. :)

That's the first time I've heard of a LEO asking a CHL to handle their handgun. Why on earth would you want not one but two people to put their guns on the dash!? Obviously he trusted you folks enough to let you both have guns in your hands, so why wasn't he comfortable enough to leave the guns where there were when he stopped you?

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:That's the first time I've heard of a LEO asking a CHL to handle their handgun. Why on earth would you want not one but two people to put their guns on the dash!? Obviously he trusted you folks enough to let you both have guns in your hands, so why wasn't he comfortable enough to leave the guns where there were when he stopped you?

Chas.

Maybe he just wanted to make sure since they had good taste in their car choice, that they had made the same good decisions on their CCW's?

Charles L. Cotton wrote:That's the first time I've heard of a LEO asking a CHL to handle their handgun. Chas.

Make that two. When I was pulled over mine was in the glove box. She asked for proof of insurance and I told her it was in the glove box and that I had a pistol in it. She asked me to take the handgun out and put it on my seat. When I got my insurance papers she instructed me to put the handgun back in the glove box and close it. After the stop was over she thanked me for being safe with my handgun. I still got the ticket.

WildBill wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:That's the first time I've heard of a LEO asking a CHL to handle their handgun. Chas.

Make that two. When I was pulled over mine was in the glove box. She asked for proof of insurance and I told her it was in the glove box and that I had a pistol in it. She asked me to take the handgun out and put it on my seat. When I got my insurance papers she instructed me to put the handgun back in the glove box and close it. After the stop was over she thanked me for being safe with my handgun. I still got the ticket.

Even that seems foolish from an officer-safety standpoint. However, at least in your situation there was a reason you had to get into the glove box (insurance card), but there was no reason to have two people put their guns on the dash.

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

WildBill wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:That's the first time I've heard of a LEO asking a CHL to handle their handgun. Chas.

Make that two. When I was pulled over mine was in the glove box. She asked for proof of insurance and I told her it was in the glove box and that I had a pistol in it. She asked me to take the handgun out and put it on my seat. When I got my insurance papers she instructed me to put the handgun back in the glove box and close it. After the stop was over she thanked me for being safe with my handgun. I still got the ticket.

Even that seems foolish from an officer-safety standpoint. However, at least in your situation there was a reason you had to get into the glove box (insurance card), but there was no reason to have two people put their guns on the dash.

Chas.

It also seems to me that he was suborning a violation of the letter of the law. Guns sitting on the dashboard can hardly be considered to be concealed and I can't think of any way to interpret the law to allow a LEO to make CHLers display their guns in that manner.

Let me add that this was a very, very young officer. My wife and I are both 50 and we talked later of how he almost came across to us like our youngest son (who is 23) does. What I mean by that is, in the MRS and MR adressing of us and so forth. So it probably was pure inexperience as to why he had us lay them on the dash. But I also feel that it was not appropriate either to tell him next time don't let people do that.

Not that our son calls us MR or MRS - we are still mom and dad !

jimlongley wrote:It also seems to me that he was suborning a violation of the letter of the law. Guns sitting on the dashboard can hardly be considered to be concealed and I can't think of any way to interpret the law to allow a LEO to make CHLers display their guns in that manner.

I would think that if you were ordered by an LEO to put your handgun on the dashboard, you would be considered to be "disarmed" by the LEO. Therfore, the weapon would no longer be "in your possession" or "under your control." ANAL, but that would be my strategy!

Sounds like this officer is from another state. There are a few states where "dashboard carry" is the law, so perhaps he thought it made sense to have you keep your pistols there.

Oh, and just an academic point, since there was no ticket: it sounds to me like the officer would have had a hard time testifying in court as to what probable cause he had to search you.

In Texas, a radar reading is a "search" of a driver, and requires that the officer establish probable cause to search, by a visual estimate of speed. A radar measurement of speed without probable cause is invalid in court.

(If I stated that wrongly, I'm sure Steve Rothstein will be along to correct me, since I learned it from him in the first place. )

Well....Steve R, let us hear your interpretation because that one sure did confuse me.

WildBill wrote:

jimlongley wrote:It also seems to me that he was suborning a violation of the letter of the law. Guns sitting on the dashboard can hardly be considered to be concealed and I can't think of any way to interpret the law to allow a LEO to make CHLers display their guns in that manner.

I would think that if you were ordered by an LEO to put your handgun on the dashboard, you would be considered to be "disarmed" by the LEO. Therfore, the weapon would no longer be "in your possession" or "under your control." ANAL, but that would be my strategy!

Considering other TX laws about the presence of objects in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, I don't see any way to interpret the guns being on the dash as not being in possession or control. Remember that non-CHL car carry, criminal and "traveling," doesn't involve the gun being on the body, just within reach.

I could see a scenario where the officer had each actor, separately, move to the rear of the vehicle and disarm, placing the gun in the trunk, as disarmed, but not sitting in plain sight on the dash. I could also see that scenario as being way beyond necessary, but then I consider an officer disarming a CHL during a routine traffic stop as being unnecessary anyway - maybe in suspected DWI, or a road rage incident that rises above the "he said/she said" level, but not just speeding.

From my IDPA and other experience I would expect the gun to be more readily accessible from the dash than from concealment.

jimlongley wrote:Considering other TX laws about the presence of objects in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, I don't see any way to interpret the guns being on the dash as not being in possession or control.

Forgive me for getting off topic. I am not arguing about the wisdom of putting guns on the dash or whether you can get them fast. My answer to your question is "because the LEO told me to put it there and leave it there."

You may be right by the letter of the law, but if I were charged with failure to conceal in similar circumstances, my defense would be "I was ordered by the police to place my gun on the dash and I did exactly what I was ordered to do." Being charged for failure to conceal would be like you getting pulled over on the highway by the police and then getting a ticket for illegal parking because you stopped.