Field sobriety test

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SA-TX
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Re: Field sobriety test

#61

Post by SA-TX »

Pulling this back towards the original questions of "should I talk to the police" and/or "should I take and FST or give a sample", I'd say that the answers by lawyers, including many prosecutors, is telling: NO. Do some searching over at the Texas District and County Attorney's Association (TDCAA) website and you'll find that many say that they would not do so even though they prosecute such cases and are big advocates of blood draws. There have certainly been examples of politicians, who were attorneys, that refused including a judge relatively recently (down near Lake Whitney, IIRC).

Attorneys of all stripes seem to know that volunteering evidance that may be used against you is a risky proposition, as SRothstein so ably described earlier in this thread. They would rather "take the ride", fight at the ALR hearing, or insist that a blood draw warrant be issued than provide anything that might cause them to lose not a battle (being arrested), but the war: the DWI charge. To be fair, I'm sure examples of the opposite answer can be found too, but my unscientific sample of attorney behavior/responses is that they refuse.

To our fine LEOs on the board let me say that I'm not endorsing DWI. As has been demonstrated by this thread, whether a driver voluntarily provides evidance or not, part of good police work involves documenting everything so that a jury can have as much information as possible about the circumstances. There's always has been and probably always will be some tension between law enforcement and preservation of civil rights. I suspect that most people want drunk/seriously impaired drivers off the road but don't want the person who truly had 2 beers with dinner to be hassled for 45 minutes before being allowed to continue on their way.

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that your friend is right in that Texas has a two part definition for DWI: =>.08 BAC OR where normal use of facilities is impared (I'm summarizing, not quoting the statute). The second part most often arises where drugs are the intoxicant but it can and has been used where the BAC is < .08. Imagine a situation where it is 3:00 am, a person had been partying and has sobered up substantially from where they were, is now slighly below .08, but is very tired and driving home. If they are weaving all over the road and nearly falling alseep at the wheel, as evidanced by video from a patrol car dash cam, I wouldn't be surprised to see a DUI charge and have it stick.

SA-TX
VMaxer wrote:A couple of buddies asked me to go out with them for some adult beverages the other night, and given that I'm going through a lovely divorce right now - I decided I needed to go. So, not wishing to mix firearms and alochol, I left my weapon at home and headed out.

Four hours (and two beers) later, I headed home.

Shortly after leaving, got pulled over by Dallas PD. I did the right things...car off, window down, dome light on. Gave him by DL/CHL and proof of insurance. He asked me if I had my firearm with me, and I told him no. He said, "Good."

He indicated I had a brake light out, and that's why he pulled me over. :banghead:

When asked if I had been drinking, I (stupidly?) told him about the 2-beers. He came back from his car and wanted to give me a field sobriety test. I complied. It was quick, and I easily passed. He sort of dismissed me with a laugh and said, "Get back into your car." He thanked me for being cooperative and let me go on my way.

Reflecting, and after doing some online research, I have since wondered about the appropriateness of an affirmative answer to the question about drinking. I'm a big believer in the, "Don't talk to the police," mentality. But, I believed, in this case that my BAC was indeed well below the statutory limit, and that was my absolute defense. Not so, I have subsequently learned.

Some lawyer friends (from another state) told me that I can be cited for DUI even if blowing a BAC level less than the law allows, if the officer believes I am impaired and not safe to drive. So, if you're one of those that doesn't drink much or often, you can seemingly incriminate yourself with being really bad at walking a straight line (or whatever in your test), regardless of your BAC.

If that's correct, how in the heck should one answer the, "Have you been drinking tonight," question?
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Oldgringo
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Re: Field sobriety test

#62

Post by Oldgringo »

tacticool wrote:
With all due respect, if your driving is impaired enough for gigag04 to notice, over and above all the other vehicles on the road, maybe you shouldn't be driving.

Whether the impairment is caused by alcohol, medicine, or something else, impaired is impaired. It makes no difference to the little kid who gets run over and killed by the impaired driver.
Absolutely and add distracted and speeding to impaired.

My youngest son might be alive today if he hadn't been struck by a woman driver who was distracted by her infant in the car with her. This was in 1981, well before everyone had today's cell phones and other electronic distractions.

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Re: Field sobriety test

#63

Post by reality99 »

To first address the OP's question, I would say never lie to an officer. If they ask questions, specifically that one, they may already know the answer or have suspicions. You telling him no you hadn't been drinking only gives him more reason to believe you are hiding something (if he had smelled alcohol/seen swerving/etc. prior to asking you the question). If you are worried about DWI, then don't drink and drive. Period. This brings me to the next subject (rant warning).

I don't understand why people are so defensive about talking to an officer. Their jobs are hard enough without people giving them the run around. Regarding consenting to a breathalyzer, if you haven't been drinking you have nothing to worry about. Take the test and get on with your life. If you have been drinking, you are the one that made that choice knowing it is possible you get pulled over-be it for driving erratically or other non moving violations. While having a beer then driving home an hour later after a meal won't likely put you over the limit, you still make the choice to have that drink and have to face the consequences if you mess up.

I did a little digging and found this regarding random checkpoints: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_D ... ce_v._Sitz. Again, if you haven't been drinking you have nothing to worry about at these checkpoints. Let the officers see your DL/insurance and get on with your day/night. If you have been drinking then be prepared to face the consequences. No one forced you to drink, and they certainly didn't force you to drive afterward. While it may be an inconvenience to those of us that haven't been drinking to have to stop at a checkpoint, I don't mind if it means the streets are going to be safer. I have had too many friends involved in wrecks with drunk drivers to have any sympathy. Personally I feel Texas gives people too many chances regarding drinking and driving. Don't do it and you don't have to worry about getting in trouble for it.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in the constitution and my individual rights, but I certainly don't think 5-10 minutes at a checkpoint is worth throwing a fit over to ensure those people drinking and driving get what's coming to em.

Gig'em.

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that your friend is right in that Texas has a two part definition for DWI: =>.08 BAC OR where normal use of facilities is impared (I'm summarizing, not quoting the statute). The second part most often arises where drugs are the intoxicant but it can and has been used where the BAC is < .08. Imagine a situation where it is 3:00 am, a person had been partying and has sobered up substantially from where they were, is now slighly below .08, but is very tired and driving home. If they are weaving all over the road and nearly falling alseep at the wheel, as evidanced by video from a patrol car dash cam, I wouldn't be surprised to see a DUI charge and have it stick.

SA-TX
DUI is for under 21 drivers. Any hint of alcohol or intoxication is enough to charge someone under 21 with DUI, no breathalyzer needed. If someone is below .08 they can still be issued a DWI if they have impaired judgment.

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Re: Field sobriety test

#64

Post by kahrfreak »

gigag04 wrote: HGN is the most reliable test and is validated for seated positions.
For those who don't know what the SFST, HGN, etc. are:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/People/injury/alco ... ndix_a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Ameer
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Re: Field sobriety test

#65

Post by Ameer »

reality99 wrote:I don't understand why people are so defensive about talking to an officer. Their jobs are hard enough without people giving them the run around. Regarding consenting to a breathalyzer, if you haven't been drinking you have nothing to worry about.
If you have nothing to hide, why should police need a warrant before searching your house?
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Re: Field sobriety test

#66

Post by pbwalker »

Ameer wrote:
reality99 wrote:I don't understand why people are so defensive about talking to an officer. Their jobs are hard enough without people giving them the run around. Regarding consenting to a breathalyzer, if you haven't been drinking you have nothing to worry about.
If you have nothing to hide, why should police need a warrant before searching your house?
:iagree: :iagree:

I hate the "You've got nothing to hide, so don't worry about it" argument. It's that attitude that further erodes our rights on a daily basis.
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Re: Field sobriety test

#67

Post by gigag04 »

pbwalker wrote:
Ameer wrote:
reality99 wrote:I don't understand why people are so defensive about talking to an officer. Their jobs are hard enough without people giving them the run around. Regarding consenting to a breathalyzer, if you haven't been drinking you have nothing to worry about.
If you have nothing to hide, why should police need a warrant before searching your house?
:iagree: :iagree:

I hate the "You've got nothing to hide, so don't worry about it" argument. It's that attitude that further erodes our rights on a daily basis.
I side with you guys here.
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Re: Field sobriety test

#68

Post by reality99 »

I don't always live by the philosophy if you have nothing to hide, then why should you care. I just think that you should pick and choose your battles. It's one thing if the FBI comes knocking on your door saying they were in the neighborhood and want to look through your house, but in my opinion its different than submitting to a breathalyzer at a checkpoint. While it may be an inconvenience, in the long run what does it truly hurt? I get that some would argue, if they get away with this then they will up the ante until we eventually had no rights, but I don't think this is that extreme. If they try to pass legislation that allows a breathalyzer/blood draw to be administered to anyone that looks at an officer, then yes by all means I would jump up and down defending my rights. But (again, only my opinion) I don't think a DWI check point constitutes as police out of control infringing on my rights.
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Re: Field sobriety test

#69

Post by gigag04 »

Driving is a privilege.
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison
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OldCurlyWolf
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Re: Field sobriety test

#70

Post by OldCurlyWolf »

Ameer wrote: If you have nothing to hide, why should police need a warrant before searching your house?
Because it is my property and not subject to search without a warrant. If they come on in without that warrant criminal charges will be filed.

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Re: Field sobriety test

#71

Post by steveincowtown »

gigag04 wrote:Driving is a privilege.
It most certainly is, however not being subject to illegal search or seizure is a right. I have the right to say no, and the gov’t presumably has the right to then take away a privilege.
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Re: Field sobriety test

#72

Post by TrueFlog »

Advice from a DFW-area lawyer. His two main points are 1) Don't say anything and 2) Request to consult your lawyer before submitting to a SFST.

On a related note, Radley Balko opposes not only DWI checkpoints, but DWI laws as a whole. (And so do I.) I believe the laws should focus on the dangerous acts - reckless driving, speeding, etc. - and not on the cause - drowsiness, drunkenness, texting, etc. If a guy can drive safely from point A to point B, who cares how drunk he is or isn't? I'm not advocating drunk driving or saying it's never dangerous, I just prescribe to the "No harm, no foul" philosophy.

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Re: Field sobriety test

#73

Post by Katygunnut »

TrueFlog wrote:On a related note, Radley Balko opposes not only DWI checkpoints, but DWI laws as a whole.[/url] (And so do I.) I believe the laws should focus on the dangerous acts - reckless driving, speeding, etc. - and not on the cause - drowsiness, drunkenness, texting, etc. If a guy can drive safely from point A to point B, who cares how drunk he is or isn't? I'm not advocating drunk driving or saying it's never dangerous, I just prescribe to the "No harm, no foul" philosophy.
Definitely a controversial position, but one that I also sympathize with.

For me, you would also need to take away the "justification" of being drunk leading to a lower sentence. If a drunk driver causes an accident and someone dies, they need to be held to the same punishment as someone who did the same thing while stone cold sober. That is the only way I would support doing away with drunk driving laws. This may not be feasible, without changing other aspects of the law such as the need to prove intent for various charges, etc.

Then again, IANAL, and IADNAL (I Am Definitely Not A Lawmaker), so what do I know?
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Re: Field sobriety test

#74

Post by gigag04 »

Removing penalties for driving drunk is absurd. Work some DWI fatality accidents...

Just because a drunk makes it home w/o killing anyone does not mean that he or she is "OK" to drive. If I start lobbing shots from my AR in random arcs in a populated area, but don't kill or injure anyone, no harm no foul right? And for the person that does get hit, they shouldn't have walked into my bullet's path - I was well within my rights.....
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TrueFlog
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Re: Field sobriety test

#75

Post by TrueFlog »

Katygunnut wrote:
TrueFlog wrote:On a related note, Radley Balko opposes not only DWI checkpoints, but DWI laws as a whole.[/url] (And so do I.) I believe the laws should focus on the dangerous acts - reckless driving, speeding, etc. - and not on the cause - drowsiness, drunkenness, texting, etc. If a guy can drive safely from point A to point B, who cares how drunk he is or isn't? I'm not advocating drunk driving or saying it's never dangerous, I just prescribe to the "No harm, no foul" philosophy.
Definitely a controversial position, but one that I also sympathize with.

For me, you would also need to take away the "justification" of being drunk leading to a lower sentence. If a drunk driver causes an accident and someone dies, they need to be held to the same punishment as someone who did the same thing while stone cold sober. That is the only way I would support doing away with drunk driving laws. This may not be feasible, without changing other aspects of the law such as the need to prove intent for various charges, etc.

Then again, IANAL, and IADNAL (I Am Definitely Not A Lawmaker), so what do I know?
I would actually take it a step farther and make impairment an aggravating factor. A drunk who causes an accident (fatality or not) should face a stiffer punishment than a sober driver.
gigag04 wrote:Just because a drunk makes it home w/o killing anyone does not mean that he or she is "OK" to drive. If I start lobbing shots from my AR in random arcs in a populated area, but don't kill or injure anyone, no harm no foul right? And for the person that does get hit, they shouldn't have walked into my bullet's path - I was well within my rights.....
That's a straw man, and you know it. "Guess he shouldn't have driven on the same road as the drunk" - those are essentially the words you're putting in my mouth, but I never said them. None of us is suggesting that we blame the victim of a drunk driving accident or give the drunk a pass. If a guy's swerving all over the road, speeding, or whatever, the pull him over and write him up. Otherwise leave him alone.
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