Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky!!

[glbedd53]

Cops are war veterans? Sorry but that's a stretch in my humble opinion.. I have ridden with them and there is no comparison. Read about Sam Dealey, Richard O' Kane, or Mush Morton. Or Tex Hill, Pappy Boyington, or any of the guys at Omaha Beach and tell me if you think the average cop rises to that level. How about any of the ones in B-17s and B-24s over Germany that knew their chances of survival were slim to none. Those guys knew they were gonna be shot at EVERY day. How many cops or anyone else would even show up for work if we knew we were gonna get shot at today? A lot of people have dangerous jobs. Even I worked in a plant for 35 years. Chemical exposure and waiting for explosions every day. Does anyone call me sir because I worked in a plant. No, but I don't expect it. It would be absurd. Because I'm no better than anyone else. Those war veterans I mentioned were better. They had something that most of us just don't have.

[snorri]

It's the average citizens who are on the front line in the war against crime, and the police are like the cavalry in the westerns who may save the day, but most of the time they show up a while after the attack begins. If American cops are "war veterans" it's only because every American is a war veteran.

[Excaliber]

Cops are war veterans? Sorry but that's a stretch in my humble opinion.. I have ridden with them and there is no comparison. Read about Sam Dealey, Richard O' Kane, or Mush Morton. Or Tex Hill, Pappy Boyington, or any of the guys at Omaha Beach and tell me if you think the average cop rises to that level. How about any of the ones in B-17s and B-24s over Germany that knew their chances of survival were slim to none. Those guys knew they were gonna be shot at EVERY day. How many cops or anyone else would even show up for work if we knew we were gonna get shot at today? A lot of people have dangerous jobs. Even I worked in a plant for 35 years. Chemical exposure and waiting for explosions every day. Does anyone call me sir because I worked in a plant. No, but I don't expect it. It would be absurd. Because I'm no better than anyone else. Those war veterans I mentioned were better. They had something that most of us just don't have.

Your point that military combat is much different than police work is certainly correct, and I wholeheartedly agree. However, I think you're missing something when you compare working in a plant to police work based on a couple of apparently uneventful ridealongs.

Military work in a war zone is deadly high intensity conflict over periods of months or a year at a time. Major city police work is continuous low intensity conflict with deadly high intensity moments repeated continuously for about 3 decades.

There are some quiet jurisdictions where officers may only infrequently encounter dangerous felons, but interpersonal battle is a way of life in a major city PD.

Unless one messes up, working in a plant involves no overt conflict at all. Plant workers get paid to do things other than fighting, and generally get disciplined or fired if they step over that line.

Police officers get paid to fight dangerous people. It's a routine and required part of the job.

Concerns about the potential for industrial accidents in private industry, while perhaps well founded, aren't quite the same as bad breath range combat with HIV and HBV infected drug fueled psychotics who are actively trying to maim or kill you. Stopping them from doing that takes a little more than following safety rules. Doing that over and over for 25 or 30 years takes something beyond what most folks have or are willing to give.

[Excaliber]

It's the average citizens who are on the front line in the war against crime, and the police are like the cavalry in the westerns who may save the day, but most of the time they show up a while after the attack begins. If American cops are "war veterans" it's only because every American is a war veteran.

I respectfully beg to differ.

Most Americans have never faced and fought a criminal, and are still convinced that serious crime can't and won't happen to them. That posture pervades the victim pool that the criminal element preys upon. One up close and personal encounter often changes that, when the victim survives the incident.

During the 80's and 90's New Yorkers were fond of observing that the definition of a liberal is a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet.

[glbedd53]

My dad was a war veteran and a cop. He doesn't see it as you do. He has a lot of credibility with me.

[danpaw]

I work in a chemical plant and while I would not say it is more dangerous than law enforcement it is not much safer either. Your safety still depends on other peoples actions. The danger involved is the reason we make the money we do. HCN can kill you just as dead and quicker than a bullet and and a lot quicker than HIV.

[Excaliber]

I work in a chemical plant and while I would not say it is more dangerous than law enforcement it is not much safer either. Your safety still depends on other peoples actions. The danger involved is the reason we make the money we do. HCN can kill you just as dead and quicker than a bullet and and a lot quicker than HIV.

This discussion is a good example of how difficult it is to convey what happens to people who have fought other people for their lives to folks who haven't been through that experience. The natural response is to try to equate what it must be like to a circumstance where the listener experienced some degree of anxiety, fear, or potential danger. It's not the same.

There is a major qualitative difference between doing something that has potentially fatal environmental or mechanical risks inherent in it, and facing a person who suddenly explodes into doing his dead level best to kill you at bad breath distance and it takes an instantaneous counterattack with every last bit of skill, resourcefulness, energy, and raw courage that you have to keep you alive. The feelings, perceptual changes, tremors, exhaustion, and many levels of aftermath defy description.

While you can most certainly die in a workplace accident or from disease, those are completely impersonal sources of danger. You face a greater risk of death every time you take your car out on the road, but that doesn't permanently change people in major ways like fighting for your life does.

Full bore intentional killing combat is personal in the extreme. The difference is so profound and the difficulty of communicating what it's like so great that many who have been through it in a military, police, or a criminal attack setting will often refuse to discuss it at all with anyone who hasn't been through that kind of experience.

If you are fortunate enough to have been spared that part of life, thank God and pray that never changes. Then try to accept that there's a difference so profound in those who have been through that crucible that you will likely never come to know what it's like through words alone.

[danpaw]

Oh, ok you got me. You really had me going until that last one, the part about "the crucible".

[Excaliber]

Oh, ok you got me. You really had me going until that last one, the part about "the crucible".

Well, I was thinking figuratively but I guess I should have chosen a different illustration......

[rdcrags]

Getting back to the subject: I say "Yes sir" or "yes ma'am" if handed a ticket with a fine, and "Thank you" if it is a warning ticket.

[jackal858]

Cops are war veterans? Sorry but that's a stretch in my humble opinion... A lot of people have dangerous jobs. Even I worked in a plant for 35 years. Chemical exposure and waiting for explosions every day. Does anyone call me sir because I worked in a plant. No, but I don't expect it. It would be absurd. Because I'm no better than anyone else. Those war veterans I mentioned were better. They had something that most of us just don't have.

Comparing plant work to police work is much more of a stretch than comparing a police officer to a war veteran.

Just on face value, what is the purpose of these professions? Soldier is to fight for and protect our freedoms. A police officer is to uphold the law, and in doing so, protects civilians. A plant worker is to produce some useful commodity/good. Possibly you may produce some commodity/good that betters our lives, and may even protect civilians in some round about way. I'm sure your job is much more dangerous than many jobs, but you probably don't make the active choice to strap on a uniform and put a big target on your back every day in order to protect those they serve. This is something that soldiers and police officers both do daily.

Read about Sam Dealey, Richard O' Kane, or Mush Morton. Or Tex Hill, Pappy Boyington, or any of the guys at Omaha Beach and tell me if you think the average cop rises to that level.

What about Michael Carroll, Robert Foti, John Coughlin, or Glen Pettit? They stared up at two 110 story infernos, and still went inside to try and save others. Before this day, these four men were probably seen as just "average" also. I'd say they more than rose to "that level" on that day, and paid the ultimate price.

I like that you have an obvious respect for war veterans, but it seems you actually may hold them in too high of regard, at least to the point of neglecting to acknowledge the bravery and sacrifice made by so many police and firemen on the domestic front.

[glbedd53]

I'll give you those but how many of them ran the other way? I have never been either one but my dad has and he would striaghten you out right quick and in his old age he would probably throw a few insults at you for even saying something so adsurd.

[Excaliber]

I'll give you those but how many of them ran the other way? I have never been either one but my dad has and he would striaghten you out right quick and in his old age he would probably throw a few insults at you for even saying something so adsurd.

Considering that the number of emergency responder casualties wasn't limited to the very few named by jackal858, it would appear that the level of courage I'm used to seeing in law enforcement was consistently in evidence among the hundreds of emergency responders at Ground Zero that day. I know a number of folks who were there during the event, and I haven't yet heard a report of any police officer, firefighter, or medic who ran away. I can tell you from twenty years of first hand experience that it's a rarity in police work. Police officers instinctively run toward the danger - every time. It's how they're wired and one of the hard to understand things that makes them different.

If you want stories of folks who ran away in the face of deadly danger, ask your dad. He almost certainly witnessed it. It's well documented as a common phenomenon in war, particularly among conscripted forces. That doesn't diminish the heroism of those who stayed and fought.

[jester]

Well, I had my first chance to show my CHL to a LEO today. I took a different route in to work because I slept in a little bit (no one was going to be in, I took advantage). Two motorcycle cops sat at the bottom of a hill on the road outside of my subdivision. Perfect spot to catch people who weren't smart enough to ride their brakes.

Good thing you weren't in a rush.

[glbedd53]

Yep, my dad did tell me about the runaways. I can't elaborate about who they were because it's not politically correct and unacceptable on this forum. As for 9/11, there were a lot of heroes that day and a lot of em, I think most of em weren't cops.