Bad LEO Encounter last night

[tfrazier]

...Your opinions may vary but this is mine.

I must say you make a lot of sense. Even if the officer was concerned about whether one of the guns from the night stands the wife told him about ended up in the hands of an intruder, common sense and training dictate he would treat any intruder he came upon as armed whether he discovered a gun missing or not.

I guess he had some right to be a little miffed that the risk of a previously unarmed intruder obtaining a gun was higher, but he should have kept it to himself if he couldn't express his concern without offending the wife.

After all, he's paid to do the job, and nobody forced him to accept the LEO position.

I do remember that most of the hot water I got into as a cop was due to offering my opinions when they weren't asked for.

[dicion]

I don't go along with him "lecturing" your wife, but I do believe that the weapons he found and loaded could be a serious problem. They were in fact "unsecured". Now you may say that they were secured as long as the house was locked (similar to being locked in a car). But, I suggest that with numerous people living in the house, it is very easy to leave a door unlocked or a window open.

Of course. An unlocked door or open window gives the whole neighborhood permission for anyone to enter your house and rifle through your stuff.

I suggest that whoever was in the house got scared quickly and did not have time to find the guns. Most likely it was teenagers which makes it more important to lock up all guns when you leave the house.

So the fact that it was 'probably teenagers' means that we need to hide our guns now, in our own homes, even if we don't have children, because one might break in and gain access to them?
What if the teenagers that Illegally broke into my house happened to accidentally shoot themselves?! Oh No! Save the Criminals.. err I mean Children!

I too have nightstand guns and other guns placed around the house. But before I leave the house, all of those are always put back into the safe. Then when I get back home I reposition them accordingly.

This does two things. It helps to eliminate the guns easily being taken by the would be intruder (teenagers looking for booze or cigarettes normally). It also makes it harder for even the most experienced robber to get them if they are in a good safe.

I don't know about you, but I sometimes have trouble remembering what I ate for breakfast in the morning. If I'm moving stuff every time I walk out door, I'm half apt to forget to return them when I get home. And that would be a problem if something happened that night, and my handgun was across the house in the safe.

Sorry, I'm going to leave my non-carry gun in the same place, my nightstand, pretty much 24/7, unless I'm taking it somewhere (the range). This leaves me no doubt of where I last left it in the middle of the night.

Oh, and the 3rd thing.......
Very embarrassing to be shot with your own gun upon your return to your residence...........(assuming you live).

I agree with you there. But if I return to my home, and it has been broken into, I'm going to assume anyone in there is already armed whether I have guns in there, accessible, or not. Their gun, my gun, does it matter who's gun they have at that point?


I don't have children, and if I know that some are coming over, (relatives, friends, etc) Then I'm the first one to move all the guns (except the one on my hip) to the safe. Do I risk getting them stolen if my house is broken into accordingly? Yes, and I know that.

[The Annoyed Man]

And by the way, you got more than one Ducati? Here I sit with no bike at all. Com'on, Bro, spread the wealth like Obama says.

I know, huh?

[srothstein]

Well, I may be a little late getting to the thread, but here is my opinion on how to proceed. You have already called the supervisor and filed an informal complaint. As a supervisor, I would appreciate your trust in our handling of it, and I assume he would also. So, I would not follow up with a formal complaint. This is especially true with the extra help of the neighbor mentioning it to the Chief. The sergeant will be getting pressure from above now too.

So, since I think you should follow up and make sure (the cop was wrong for the lecture/threat no matter what else), I recommend a second informal talk with the sergeant. This time, stop by the station and talk to him. Explain that you were thinking about it and the second question has popped up in your mind. You were upset enough at the threats that you did not think about it, but now you would like to know why the officer was even in the drawers. You are concerned that this is officer may not fully understand the limits of the Fourth Amendment and especially how the SCOTUS has been ruling to restrict it even further lately. This will give you time to talk with the sergeant and find out a little more about what he did and what the officer said. If you get lucky, you might even get him to call the officer in to explain the reason for going in the drawer to you (he might have been checking for the weapons but let him explain it).

In my opinion, your best bet at this point is to keep it informal and work with the supervisor. That usually produces good results AND keeps the cop from getting mad at you (and this one sounds like the type to carry a grudge). The average supervisor will do more for someone working with him than for a formal complaint from someone who did not give him a chance.

[A-R]

I do remember that most of the hot water I got into as a cop was due to offering my opinions when they weren't asked for.

tfrazier, I am shocked, SHOCKED, at this. ... hey man, takes one to know one

I think cop #1 was a jerk and I think you've handled it well. I'd recommend a follow up phone call/visit to be sure it was "handled".

As for securing guns when you're away, take a moment to read Texas Penal Code 46:13 MAKING A FIREARM ACCESSIBLE TO A CHILD - now of course IANAL, but the "best practices" I've always been taught is to leave any firearms not in your direct possession/control behind no less than two forms of lock to avoid any prosecution or even minor hassle from 46:13. I was taught in a CHL class this could mean locked house doors plus a burglar alarm. But more reasonably meant locked house doors plus a locked closet door or better yet a safe. Same rules apply to your vehicle.

Is this overkill? Yeah, probably. 46:13 clearly states it is a defense to prosecution if the child gained access to the firearm by violation of the law (i.e. breaking and entering). But the nightmare scenario this "best practice" is meant to avoid is the previously stated leaving a door unlocked, or even wide open. Are you ALWAYS the only person to secure your home when you're away? I have a select group of family, friends, and even some "workers" - occasional housekeeper - who have access to my home while I'm away. What if one of them forgets to re-lock the house? How many of you (or maybe your HWIC - Head Woman In Charge) have left the house one morning and returned that evening to discover you forgot to lower the garage door as you backed out of the driveway? Do you keep the door between the garage and house locked too? I don't always, especially since it's supposed to be behind a locked garage door. As a Realtor, I make a VERY FIRM point to my clients that they must lock away all precious items while the house is on the market - jewelry, cash, FIREARMS. No Realtor is perfect, and houses do get left unlocked from time to time.

So the legal question is, if a minor child finds your house "open" does he commit a crime by entering? Thus do you still have the affirmative defense to prosecution that this minor child only found your guns after illegally entering your house? IANAL and I don't know the answer to this. But I'm not taking chances.

There are plenty of ways to keep your guns sufficiently locked up AND accessible to you. I bought two of these handy and relatively inexpensive little lockboxes from Cabelas for just such purposes ... http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templ ... 20799&rid=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And replaced the key lock with a great combo lock from here .... http://www.amazon.com/Combination-Cam-L ... 756&sr=8-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You can use these anywhere in the house (they can bolt down or be secured with tether and lock), in the car, or even in your luggage on an airplance (see FAA rules & regs).

For in car use, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND one of the solutions from these guys (I have a Console Vault in my Toyota pickup) ... https://www.consolevault.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I do have young children. So for me leaving guns loaded and unsecured is NOT AN OPTION EVER. But there really is no need for anyone to leave a gun unsecured. Just be sure your method of securing works for you and allows you the ability to quickly retrieve your gun in an emergency. With a little practice, I can have any of my guns out of any of my lockboxes (especially since they all use the same type of "Combi Cam" lock) in 5 to 10 seconds, BLIND - in the dark. And since they are locked, I keep them loaded and ready to go with a round in the chamber.

[frazzled]

So you're recommedning that because child could somehow get in my house it might be illegal unless I further lock my guns up?

Er...no

[Abraham]

tfrazier ,

I wasn't clear with my "not acceptable" response.

By that, I meant his following behavior is not acceptable - even if he was motivated by the child/gun excuse - which is no excuse at all. Much like I don't care what motivates terrorists - I don't care what motivated this cop. His actions were WAY out of line. Who cares what his motivations are, his actions speak most loudly. His actions are germane, not his motivation.

For what it's worth, I'm pro police. They have a very tough job and most are good at what they do. However, when an officer demonstrates unacceptable behavior of this magnitude it's time he looks for some other kind of employment.

[A-R]

So you're recommedning that because child could somehow get in my house it might be illegal unless I further lock my guns up?

Er...no

frazzled, I'm not recommending anything (other than the cursory endorsements of products I've used). Just throwing out there for the discussion the advice I have been given by CHL trainers and others and offering up my own personal practices - which are obviously influenced greatly because I have very young children LIVING in my home. Before I had children, I did not have a safe in my home or vehicle. So I fully understand where you're coming from. But doing so very well could open you to SEVERE criminal and civil liability. IANAL.

And the reason for the specific product recommendations is to illustrate that guns can be left locked up AND quickly accessible at the same time. This is all part of good and responsible TRAINING. You train to analyze threats. You train to shoot. And in between those two actions in the sequence, you have surely trained to draw your weapon to meet the threat. Training to draw your weapon from a secured location is no different than training to draw your weapon from a holster. Obviously the best "ready position" is to walk around 24/7/365 with a firearm permanently affixed to your hand in a drawn position. But just as impractical as this scenario is outside of a war zone, so too, IMHO, is the notion that firearms must be kept strewn about a home unsecured "just in case" when there is a plethora of well-built, easy-to-install, quick-to-use lockable solutions available on the market.

I actually think the way Texas law is deviced in this context is EXACTLY what we all want (and what we all recite to anti-gunners when they propose some new draconian "requirement" on us) ... there is no law that I know of (IANAL) saying you MUST lock up your guns. But, if you don't, and the unthinkable happens, you darn sure deserve the punishment coming your way. This is the same as saying you should not be denied RKBA, but IF you abuse that right and use your firearms for illegal purposes (murder, rape, robbery etc.), you deserve your punishment.

So again, I'm not recommending anything and would never tell another gun owner what to do in their own house. This is a free country (at least for a while longer) and the choice is yours. I'm just passing along the info I've been given to help me make the choice that works for me.

[74novaman]

I'm confused by them asking for the locations of all firearms in the house when responding to a call? Are we legally obligated to tell cops this?

He wouldn't have even had a chance to lecture your wife about "unsecured" firearms if he didn't get told exactly where they were...

Very unpleasant sounding situation. I would have filed a formal complaint, and found new storage places for all my weapons since that jerk knows where they are now.

[jlangton]

After all, he's paid to do the job, and nobody forced him to accept the LEO position.

That's really easy to understand,and is something people forget about when they start their "it's a dangerous job" in defending problem Officers.
JL

[tfrazier]

After all, he's paid to do the job, and nobody forced him to accept the LEO position.

That's really easy to understand,and is something people forget about when they start their "it's a dangerous job" in defending problem Officers.
JL

True, but we shouldn't go overboard with that logic. You could say the same about the military, yet both should be commended for their willingness to sacrifice. I think in some situations the low pay and risk should be a consideration, even though it's all voluntary.

It all has to be tempered with common sense.

[A-R]

After all, he's paid to do the job, and nobody forced him to accept the LEO position.

That's really easy to understand,and is something people forget about when they start their "it's a dangerous job" in defending problem Officers.
JL

I agree 100% with getting "bad" cops off the street.

But while I agree that nobody forces LEOs to take those dangerous jobs, I have a lot of respect for those who are willing to do so. If SOMEONE didn't take those jobs, then where would we be? Same with military, fire fighters etc. The fact that their jobs are dangerous and low paying does not give the LEO excuse to behave like a jerk. But on the other hand, it gives all of us plenty of reason and obligation to THANK the good cops.

Just because someone willingly agreed to take on a difficult and dangerous job does not mean they do not still deserve respect for doing so.

Off topic a bit, but I am a bit more on edge about finger pointing against LEOs right now than usual because last week there was another in a series of Austin police shootings of a minority East Austin man, after which the newspaper has again twisted the story around to make the cop seem like a derilict and the "good young man" (an 18-year-old with a prior drug conviction and an armed robbery arrest just a week before) as a saint who didn't deserve to get shot when he reached for a gun upon first site of the LEO. Makes me sick. You see a cop and reach for your gun. You absolutely DESERVE to get shot. The rest of the circumstances are all just meaningless chatter.

[tfrazier]

You said it better than I did.

[KD5NRH]

+2 except for the bombs...I think there are federal laws against that.

IIRC, you just have to make a reasonable effort to ensure that no one other than the registered owner can use them or remove them from the designated storage location. Locking the pin into a grenade, then cable-locking it to the end table in the living room might well qualify, though I'd keep the paperwork locked up close by.

Useless things you learn while fishing through ATF paperwork...

[KD5NRH]

True, but we shouldn't go overboard with that logic. You could say the same about the military,

It's a little harder to say "Chief, I just can't do this any more" in the military.