Pulled over in Plano

[srothstein]

Kevin has it correct. Radar is an electronic device that can make a determination of something that is not plainly discernible to the human eye, i.e. your exact speed. In using it, it is considered a search of the vehicle. Any search must be based on probable cause. Probable cause is established by visual estimation of the speed, which can be just they appeared to be moving over the limit but should be more precise.

In every radar operator's class, the officers are taught to always say they estimated the speed before checking it with radar. Most never understand or refuse to believe it really is a search. The officers must also demonstrate proficiency in visual estimation of speed by estimating cars for the instructor who checks with a radar gun.

This is all based on very old rulings. The latest SCOTUS ruling on matters like this was if an infra-red detector was a search or just an aid to sight like binoculars are. SCOTUS says if the officer could see the object from a different vantage point and is just using something to alter his viewpoint (binoculars or mirror periscope type device), then the rules of plain view apply. If it takes the device, it is a search.

And one of the best ways to fight a radar ticket is if the officer clocked you just as you crested a hill or came around a turn (where so many like to hide). When he says he saw you and estimated your speed first, you then ask him how far from the vision point he was. Then you ask how long he took to estimate your speed. Then you bring in estimates of reaction time and decision loop time from experts. Simple math shows how far your traveled during the estimate reaction time, and you ask him how far from the him he clocked you. Mth shows it cannot happen as they testify 90% of the time.

But, I have noticed that DPS tends to not hide this way. Most of them are just blacked out off the side of the road on a long straight. Radar works fairly far off and he has the time, so be careful of where they clock you at when you use this argument.

EDIT: And to keep this on the original discussion, I also think putting the guns on the dash was wrong. Either I trust you to keep the guns or I should remove them altogether. Based on his age, I would say he was taught by someone to disarm people but really doesn't care to do so and came up with a reasonable alternative. He might have picked it up from an older officer who trained him without explaining if the department had a policy to always disarm and the older officer felt that way (which may be more likely).

[jimlongley]

Considering other TX laws about the presence of objects in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, I don't see any way to interpret the guns being on the dash as not being in possession or control.

Forgive me for getting off topic. I am not arguing about the wisdom of putting guns on the dash or whether you can get them fast. My answer to your question is "because the LEO told me to put it there and leave it there."

You may be right by the letter of the law, but if I were charged with failure to conceal in similar circumstances, my defense would be "I was ordered by the police to place my gun on the dash and I did exactly what I was ordered to do." Being charged for failure to conceal would be like you getting pulled over on the highway by the police and then getting a ticket for illegal parking because you stopped.

ROFL, I actually have a friend who had just that happen. She was tooting along the NJ Turnpike at a high rate of speed, and when her radar detector went off, she noticed the patrol car in her rearview. He had clocked her on the speedometer and then turned the radar on. The first thing she did made us all laugh out loud long and hard when she told us, the cop was pointing to her radar detector which was beeping away merrily, and she decided that this must mean it was illegal, so she pulled it off the dash and threw it out the t-top.

She hadn't yet slowed down.

When she looked in the mirror again the cop was obviously perturbed and red facedly gesturing for her to pull over, so she did, and stopped right under one of those "NO STOPPING" signs instead of one of the pull offs farther along the road.

The cop stopped behind her and came up to tell her that when he pointed at the radar detector, all he was doing was trying to point out that he had her dead to rights, but he was going to cut her a break because she was a pretty lady and it was a nice day, and now he was going to have to ticket her for littering and improper parking, even if he didn't cite her for speeding.

She was still incensed the next day at work, not only did the officer give her a citation for littering, but he made her go back and pick up the radar detector, and then ticketed her for improper stopping too.

She was incensed.

-------------------------------

I still find myself wondering about the possibility that another LEO might come along and spot the guns on the dash and, regardless of the order of the original LEO, which I consider improper to begin with, and continue the proceedings.

Disarming is one thing, like I said, but just leaving the guns on the dash is not tantamount to disarming, it's foolish on a lot of levels.

[starrbuck]

At least on the dash they are in plain sight and it would be obvious if you reached for/toward them.

[NcongruNt]

In contrast, a gun is much more readily and quickly accessible on a dashboard than it is in most holsters or in a purse. I find it foolish that the officer not only had them handle their firearms unnecessarily, but had them place the weapons in a more accessible location.

[Venus Pax]

I don't get the guns on the dashboard thing either.

I would ask her not to reveal your carry status unless specifically asked. I think it may startle some LEOs, and it puts you at further disadvantage should you find yourself in the company of a bad apple.

As for the gun being close to the insurance card, we separate them for this very reason. The insurance card stays in one location, and the gun(s) remain completely separate.

[gregthehand]

As a note from someone who has conducted traffic stops, I keep everything (insurance, ID, CHl) as close to my seat as I can. I keep my CHL and DL in my wallet of course and then I keep my insurance and registration (Louisiana company truck) in my sun visor pocket. That way I don't have to go digging around.

Have all this out with your CHL on top in your hand out-stretched from your window with your dome light on. I HATED it when someone had to dig around for an insurance card in different locations. First it made me nervous as to what they might pull out. Second they knew I would need it when I walked up so why not have it ready? Instead I have to stand beside your car while traffic wizes by waiting on you. Most people wouldn't even have their DL ready when I approached. I hated that. Having everything ready and not having to dig around for it while the cop waits on you goes a long way.

[KBCraig]

...Second they knew I would need it when I walked up so why not have it ready? ...

Traffic stops are a very rare occurence for most people. Many drivers go decades without being stopped. It's to be expected that they're not up to date on what will be asked of them.

[Keith B]

...Second they knew I would need it when I walked up so why not have it ready? ...

Traffic stops are a very rare occurence for most people. Many drivers go decades without being stopped. It's to be expected that they're not up to date on what will be asked of them.

Many people when they get stopped are so busy hiding their drugs and guns they forget to get out their insurance card.

In all seriousness, KBCraig is correct. A lot of folks get so flustered when they are stopped that they just don't think about getting their license or insurance card out. I have not been stopped in so long (knock on wood) that I would probably not think about the insurance card either.

[Venus Pax]

...Second they knew I would need it when I walked up so why not have it ready? ...

Traffic stops are a very rare occurence for most people. Many drivers go decades without being stopped. It's to be expected that they're not up to date on what will be asked of them.

Many people when they get stopped are so busy hiding their drugs and guns they forget to get out their insurance card.

In all seriousness, KBCraig is correct. A lot of folks get so flustered when they are stopped that they just don't think about getting their license or insurance card out. I have not been stopped in so long (knock on wood) that I would probably not think about the insurance card either.

Not long ago, an LEO poster suggested that we not dig around until the LEO is at our window requesting these documents, as he/she could get nervous about the driver's digging around. It was recommended that we put our hands on the steering wheel so that it would be obvious that our hands weren't digging for other items.
Which is best: to have DL, CHL, and insurance card ready when LEO arrives to your window, or to keep your hands on the steering wheel until these documents are requested?

[gregthehand]

Not long ago, an LEO poster suggested that we not dig around until the LEO is at our window requesting these documents, as he/she could get nervous about the driver's digging around. It was recommended that we put our hands on the steering wheel so that it would be obvious that our hands weren't digging for other items.
Which is best: to have DL, CHL, and insurance card ready when LEO arrives to your window, or to keep your hands on the steering wheel until these documents are requested?

Thats why I said I keep mine right in front of me so there is no digging around. Flip down the visor and pull out my insurance, and then reach into my wallet and get out my Dl and CHL....

[rgoldy]

I am one of those who have not been stopped in many years, so I will admit to almost no experience in the area. I can tell you that I will not leave personal papers including insurance, DL, CHL etc. anywhere in the car except in my pocket. It seems to me a further invitation to injury for a car thief to find means to steal personal information along with the car. My feeling is that if the officer wants my "papers" he/she will ask for them, and then should not be surprised that I have to reach for them. I find it hard to fathom an officer who routinely works traffic and is so paranoid that they find this sort of reaction from a motorist to be threatening. If they want me to step out of the car to reach my wallet, we can do that. If they want to disarm me while we transact our business, that is subject to departmental policy and I am not insulted. I hope that I can maintain my "adult state" and the officer will do the same. I don't see any reason for anyone to get exercised over a traffic stop.

[KC5AV]

I'd say make every effort to have the necessary documents at the ready if you can get them before the LEO arrives at your window. I'd also make every effort to not be digging around when they walk up. If that means I only have part of my stuff available, so be it.

[age_ranger]

That tells me they have some degree of trust with CHL holders if they're going to enable you to handle your firearm during a stop. Granted, it probably isn't a good idea but it's great to hear that PPD handles matters well. I know a few of the traffic guys and they're tops. Gotta expect a little inconsistency in S.O.P. with the newbies though.

[bryang]

I am one of those that have not had any experience with being stopped by LEO. I have always driven defensively, watched my speed and always use cruse control on the highway. It was not until I took the class for my CHL that I learned the proper behavior for when you are pulled over. Now I have everything where I can have it out before the LEO reaches the car. Before the class I would not have known what to do.

-geo

[Liberty]

Not long ago, an LEO poster suggested that we not dig around until the LEO is at our window requesting these documents, as he/she could get nervous about the driver's digging around. It was recommended that we put our hands on the steering wheel so that it would be obvious that our hands weren't digging for other items.

I have heard the media suggest the same ...
Although Greg's advice seems to make more sense, and is what I would do.