Killeen TX: Multiple officers shot serving no knock warrant

[talltex]

I think no knock warrants are way over used and I might add are woefully over approved by judges.

In this case I'm not sure I see a reason to believe that the shooting was caused by the no knock service. Unless the guy claims he didn't know they were cops, which since he started shooting whole they were still outside I doubt, there is every reason to believe that he would of started shooting if they just knocked on the door.

The story says they were breaching the window...they were knocking out the glass and either leaping thru the window or about to leap thru the window...there's a huge difference between someone knocking on your door at 5:30am and hearing someone shattering the glass and climbing thru the opening...I think ANYONE is more likely to open fire when someone is kicking in a door or smashing thru a window, than upon hearing a knock on the door. I think VMI77 nailed it...in most of these "no knock" cases, it could have been done with much less risk and drama by simply keeping the subject under surveillance and waiting until he was out of the house to apprehend him, but they HAVE a Tactical Response Unit and an Organized Crime Unit and if you've got it...you NEED to use it, any chance you get, or you can't justify the expense at budget time.

[talltex]

I would suspect it is dependent upon the court and judge. If they can convince the judge it will improve "officer safety" and preservation of evidence to not knock, I can see a judge granting it. Whether or not he/she should is another discussion in my opinion.

I think "officer safety" can be used to justify just about any level of action one wants to justify.

I can see the argument that it might result in "preservation of evidence", but not officer safety...anytime you kick in a door or window, you're much more likely to get shot at than just knocking on the door. I think it's very rare situations where those tactics are actually necessary...it's more about the adrenaline rush and the chance to use all the gear.

[Jim Beaux]

No knock is a bullying tactic and not a safe approach considering there are alternative methods that moderate the behavior of "suspects". Good police work is generally boring and routine.

During a no knock it is the LEO's who are initiating a violent confrontation. The late night tactic is meant to intimidate and disorient the resident. A natural reaction to a surprise attack is often an adrenalin fueled violent response.

The tactic may be legal, but it's seldom justified.

[talltex]

An inventory of evidence collected over the course of about 12 hours as the crime scene was processed through the afternoon on May 9 and into the early morning hours on May 10 lists dozens of shell casings, projectiles, projectile fragments among more than 150 items gathered and documented.

Investigators also seized a glass pipe identified as drug paraphernalia, a safe, a grinder, a laptop computer, two walkie-talkies, a 9-mm pistol, and three cellphones from inside the apartment.

The evidence return does not list any drugs.

Take a look at that list of seized items: if they had broken into my house, they would have found everything on that list except a glass pipe. I have a safe, a grinder, several laptop computers, walkie-talkies, a WHOLE lot more than one 9mm pistol, and 3 cell phones.

I can see it now..."police recovered a large ARSENAL of weapons with THOUSANDS of rounds of ammunition, including deadly hollowpoint cop-killer/sniper bullets, along with substantial amounts of cash kept in the safe, a large cache of tools and materials that could have been used to build pipe bombs (reloading supplies and sprinkler system parts), numerous "Right Wing" type anti-government political books and pamphlets and survivalist equipment ( tent, coleman stove, sleeping bags, fly fishing equipment, folding saws and shovels, etc...). Probably wouldn't even need to have a trial

[Cedar Park Dad]

Sad. Killeen has had its share of bad days already.

[Cedar Park Dad]

I would suspect it is dependent upon the court and judge. If they can convince the judge it will improve "officer safety" and preservation of evidence to not knock, I can see a judge granting it. Whether or not he/she should is another discussion in my opinion.

I think "officer safety" can be used to justify just about any level of action one wants to justify.

I can see the argument that it might result in "preservation of evidence", but not officer safety...anytime you kick in a door or window, you're much more likely to get shot at than just knocking on the door. I think it's very rare situations where those tactics are actually necessary...it's more about the adrenaline rush and the chance to use all the gear.

I don't see how officer safety is used to justify this. Originally NK's were done so that criminals couldn't dispose of evidence down the toilet. It had nothing to do with officer safety.

Frankly it goes against common sense. If you have a real BG you're worriued about you surround the place, get out the bullhorn and wait him out. Tactially attacking a potential defensive position is much more risky then essentially laying a siege and doing nothing.

[mojo84]

"Officer safety" is used as a justification. I didn't say it was effective or necessary for officer safety. Many claim the element of surprise improves officer safety.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I think no knock warrants are way over used and I might add are woefully over approved by judges.

In this case I'm not sure I see a reason to believe that the shooting was caused by the no knock service. Unless the guy claims he didn't know they were cops, which since he started shooting whole they were still outside I doubt, there is every reason to believe that he would of started shooting if they just knocked on the door.

I would be very tempted to start shooting if I looked out my window and saw several guys running around on my porch in dark clothes with guns. The last thing I'm going to do is stick my head out and ask who they are.

But if you were a criminal would you believe the guys in full tac gear, including helmets, are police or some random home invaders? I wont argue that such things can lead to misidentification, but there has been no information that should lead anyone to draw that conclusion in this case. That also fails to address that the police may of asked for a no knock warrant because they had some belief that the suspect would shoot if given time to respond. It could be the guy will say he didn't know it was the cops but right now? Who knows.

No-knock warrants are dangerous for people on both sides of the badge. The point you make about criminals is valid as they have reason to believe that the people entering are peace officers. Conversely, when an innocent person's home is raided, whether because of a mistake or incorrect address or because of a bad tip, the innocent person has no reason to believe it is a police raid and every reason to believe it is yet another kick burglary. These are common in the Houston area and burglars often wear HPD "raid jackets" and claim to be police officers.

Whether innocent or guilty however, entering when people are most likely to be asleep compounds the problem. Startled people are far less likely to hear the officers identifying themselves. If they have dogs and/or burglar alarms, it is highly unlikely that they will hear and understand the officers over the din of an alarm and barking dog(s). If a dog is shot as often happens, then the startled homeowner is facing a blaring alarm, barking dog and shots fired. Combine these factors with the very common auditory exclusion phenomenon, and it is highly unlikely that a startled homeowner awakened in this manner will realize it is a police raid. If it is an innocent homeowner rather than a criminal, the problem is exacerbated. Even if they did hear the police "announcement," there would be every reason to believe it was actually a kick burglary.

Unless there is danger of mass casualties by the detonation of a bomb or other area weapon, then no-knock warrants should not be authorized. The potential cost in terms of human life is just too high. If the concern is destruction of evidence, then wait until the suspect is in a vehicle and then execute the warrant.

Chas.

[A-R]

Interesting discussion on no-knock warrants. But - especially since an officer died - wondering if this would be more appropriate in "Crime Blotter" instead of "LEO Contacts & Bloopers"?

Realize neither sub forum is ideal for such a topic, but the "blooper" portion of the title seems particularly insensitive regarding a line of duty death, especially during National Police Officers Memorial Week.

[Jumping Frog]

One officer I know at relatively small town (population 25,000) had a clever scenario. On one search warrant, he had the utilities department call and tell perpetrator he was $15 past due on a water bill and needed to pay it in person that day or his water would be turned off. He left, was detained at the office, and the police executed the search warrant while he was being interviewed.

[philip964]

http://kdhnews.com/news/crime/kpd-offic ... b2370.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

More links. Charged with attempted Capital Murder.

http://kdhnews.com/news/crime/killeen-p ... b2370.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clearly the shooter was no angel.

No drugs were found.

Lots of comments about how no knock warrants are dangerous for officers.

So if you shoot at someone coming through the window of your house in the middle of the night and he ends up being a police officer with a no knock warrant and you are not killed in the gun fight, you are arrested and charged with attempted capital murder.

[mojo84]

Creates a pretty precarious situation for the mere citizen when the highly trained paramilitary assault cops show up at the wrong address.

[SewTexas]

thing is, they went in supposedly after drugs, and they DIDN:T find them! I have a problem with that!

If they would have done this at my house they would have found exactly what they found at his house, well, except for the pipe, but I have seen some of them and some of them are really pretty And guess what? I have TWO grinders, ooooooh, I'm bad! and I have a big safe! and it's full!

yes, this pisses me off. those cops should NOT be hurt or dead! there are better ways to deal with this type of person. and if I were on the jury for the murder/attempted murder trial, I'd find him innocent just like a self defense trial.

[WildBill]

thing is, they went in supposedly after drugs, and they DIDN:T find them! I have a problem with that!

I think that this often happens. Informants are often unreliable, i.e. criminals trying to get a better deal for themselves.

[SewTexas]

thing is, they went in supposedly after drugs, and they DIDN:T find them! I have a problem with that!

I think that this often happens. Informants are often unreliable, i.e. criminals trying to get a better deal for themselves.

oh I know....do you know how many "anonymous" tips there are into CPS that are bogus but result in kids getting ripped out of homes because that is one of those "guilt until YOU prove YOU are innocent" situations. and it's so easy to call in and screw up someone's life, just like in this case, it was easy to say something like, "hey, yeh, he has the drugs you're looking for, and he has a gun, too, but I think he sleeps heavy and late" tips should require verification before action.