Shot Fired

[gemini]

You'b better check this thread if you think it would have been ok to fire that second shot or even the first.

http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25714

Here are some of the pertinent highlights:

Lemes told authorities he shot Glass after the 19-year-old turned and lunged at him as he was fleeing. He'd been trying to detain the intruder until police arrived, he said.

Lemes indicated at the time of the shooting that he was protecting himself, but prosecutors said Thursday they sought the indictment because he shot the unarmed man five times after Glass already had fled the house without any of the homeowner's belongings.

Texas law traditionally allows a homeowner to fire at an intruder if he believes it's the only way to protect his property, but prosecutors said Glass was empty-handed.

“In this instance, the trespass had been terminated,” she said. “The guy's running down the street and away. There was no gun found. There was no indication of deadly force being used against the defendant.”

austinrealitor makes a pretty good point. Certainly has me rethinking things.

Lots of variables between the above thread and my situation. I have not read a first hand account from Lemes so I really don't
know exactly what transpired. Again, you'll need to decide for yourself what line you will not allow others to cross. That's a personal
decision based on your individual personality, physical condition, experience,training,value system and interpretation of existing law.
I can't/won't advise you to empty your weapon or not to fire. I can tell you that if you have not already made the decision on exactly
what you are willing to do, or rather how you will respond to a threat; you'll be caught with your pants around your ankles. It happens
too fast for you to think, "gee, what are all my choices? I think i'll run through each and every scenario possible before I react".
I'm not trying to be sarcastic or a jerk. I'm telling you those thoughts won't even enter your mind. You will be keyed on the BG and
protecting yourself and your property. I'm sure whatever decision you eventually make will be the right one for you.

[KD5NRH]

1. Wearing a tuckable holster or a smart carry holster would have been completely
useless in this situation. (I am forced on occasion to use a tuckable).

Grab some cheap shirts and find someone who can do tailoring. See if they can shorten the sides to a happy medium than minimizes the fabric tucked behind the holster without letting your shirt untuck too easily.

5. There was no shaking, no inability to operate controls ie safety etc. Sight picture was steady.

Do you remember seeing the rear sight? I've caught myself finding the front sight and getting it on target without having the rear sight in place on fast draw-and-fire practice.

[gemini]

1. Wearing a tuckable holster or a smart carry holster would have been completely
useless in this situation. (I am forced on occasion to use a tuckable).

Grab some cheap shirts and find someone who can do tailoring. See if they can shorten the sides to a happy medium than minimizes the fabric tucked behind the holster without letting your shirt untuck too easily.

Good idea. I'll look into it.

5. There was no shaking, no inability to operate controls ie safety etc. Sight picture was steady.

Do you remember seeing the rear sight? I've caught myself finding the front sight and getting it on target without having the rear sight in place on fast draw-and-fire practice.

Yes. There was ambient light available, but not enough to keep the night sights from glowing. Three dots in a row.
I had stopped, after getting off the first round while moving, to take deliberate aim.

[Winchster]

Kudos to you Gemini, I am glad you responded as you did. A line in the sand must be drawn somewhere and I for one agree with where you have apparently drawn it. Several years ago, I experienced something very similar, minus the gun. I opened my kitchen door to a young man rifling through my tools in the garage. I make my living with that stuff, and without any thought or hesitation I chased when he fled. I caught him, and physically dragged him back to the house to call 911. Cops showed up and arrested him.
So again, good for you. I'm glad you came out on top, so to speak.

[HotLeadSolutions]

I'll try to answer or comment on several things instead of trying to respond to each post.

Keith B: I agree. It will be more trouble, time and expense. However, I have thought long and hard
about when, where and under what circumstances I am willing to commit to pulling my weapon and
not hesitating to use it. I believe if you have a CHL, each and every person needs to think those
issues out, BEFORE carrying a weapon.In no way do I want my original post to appear flippant or that it was a spare of the
moment decision. It's what I was personally willing to "go to the mat" for. The decision was made
along time ago. Others may have different scenarios or levels of violation before they are willing to react.

Sawdust: Thank you Sir.

gigag04: No. I simply restated exactly what I told the 911 operator. Scenario and description of BG.
After crime scene finished with the car, a list of stolen items. The responding LEO's were pro citizen.
IF I had shot and hit, I would have still called 911 and said the same things, but I would refuse to be
interviewed, either at the scene or later, without my atty present.
I have a very good lawyer. Board Certified Criminal Defense atty that actually was the one that helped me year
before last to put pressure on the State Fair of Texas (different thread). Former felony prosecutor, pro 2nd A.
We have discussed in detail exactly what to say, not to say, under dire circumstances. Basically to shut up.

Would you mind telling me who you use? I am currently looking for a good lawyer to put on retainer.

BTW...Thank you for posting about this incident and being so candid with your replies to questions.

[Heartland Patriot]

Quite the food for thought. And thought I have...and the way I see it, since the laws are pretty much STILL on the side of the BG (despite the efforts of so many to turn things around), I don't think I would give chase UNLESS the BG had something VERY valuable of mine, or had injured one of my family, or seriously damaged my property. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to run them off, I most certainly would. AND, since the BG in question turned around with something in the hand, I can totally understand firing at them. However, I'm very cynical about the law looking out for me and mine, 'cause it seems like its always helping the BG to either get off or get less than they deserve, or at minimum, making a hassle for the law-abiding. Also, I don't have a large cash-flow and so cannot afford to just call up an attorney unless its serious, and I'm almost 100% sure I'm in the right and will be exonerated. For me, the CHL is for protection of life first, and property a distant second. Like so many have said though, each person has to handle the circumstances using THEIR judgment AT THE TIME THE EVENTS OCCUR. No one (except law enforcement, the DA, your lawyer and maybe a jury) should really be second-guessing someone unless they've been in a situation of that type before. I haven't and I promise, I am not. Just the old two cents worth. Thank you for sharing the situation so that we can all mull it over and discuss it like this.

[gemini]

[quote="Heartland Patriot"]I don't think I would give chase UNLESS the BG had something VERY valuable of mine, or had injured one of my family, or seriously damaged my property.

It seems you've thought it out, and have decided under exactly what circumstances you are willing to defend your family and/or property.
That's great. As previously stated, I think everyone that carry's should have completed the mental process of when, where and under what circumstance.
The only other issues you might be overlooking; it happens VERY, VERY quickly, how will you know that your property has been seriously damaged (if you haven't had time to truly evaluate, dark/night time), one of your family has been injured (unless you are there or happen to walk in just as they get hurt), or even, if the BG is running away with something VERY valuable of yours (unless you can see in his pockets, or dark/night time)? You don't. And the BG isn't going to wait around for you to survey, evaluate, weigh a thousand different scenarios and then make some kind of decision.

Devil's advocate: You come home, night time, front door is kicked in etc., guy runs out the back. Do you give chase? It's apparent he's the one who kicked in the door. Do you run to check your VERY valuable possessions, run upstairs to to see if any family member has been harmed etc. Time is passing, the BG is fleeing a crime scene. You won't know what's been taken or who's been harmed, yet. Do you let him run or do you give chase?
Tough question. You must draw the line somewhere. And, in doing so, be able to live with the consequences or outcome.

I know what my response would be.

[OldCurlyWolf]

Devil's advocate: You come home, night time, front door is kicked in etc., guy runs out the back. Do you give chase? It's apparent he's the one who kicked in the door. Do you run to check your VERY valuable possessions, run upstairs to to see if any family member has been harmed etc. Time is passing, the BG is fleeing a crime scene. You won't know what's been taken or who's been harmed, yet. Do you let him run or do you give chase?
Tough question. You must draw the line somewhere. And, in doing so, be able to live with the consequences or outcome.

I know what my response would be.

I have thought out this scenario and many more over the years. In my current house I would not chase into the back yard. I wouldn't have to do so. No rear gate, two 80 lb. dogs that claim the yard as theirs. BG would be running to me for protection.

Other than dealing with a break in, that would be fun.

[gemini]

The trial and sentencing were in June.

Update: I followed the BG through his arrest, bail, court announcements, trial / case before the judge. Verdict? =
NAOG (Non-Adjudication of Guilt / Agreed Plea). Sentence? = 5yr Probation, Court costs etc., Restitution, and
mandatory attendence/participation in Homeward Bound (2 yr session I think), and regular PO visits.
A violation of any of the terms will result in a mandatory 2 yr Tx DOC incarceration.

The judge in this particular criminal court has a history of sending offenders to drug rehab. Originally I thought
Homeward Bound was a "teen" camp where kids are flying through the woods on zip lines and climbing rope ladders.
I did call the DA's workroom, and the explanation was that Homeward Bound is a drug rehab program that requires
counseling, testing, sessions, and some form of rehab work (whatever that is).

Anyway, that's how this has worked out.

Hope everyone is staying cool in this heat and having a good summer.

[The Annoyed Man]

gemini, thanks for the update. I had forgotten about this thread until I saw that you had posted in it again. I went back and reread your opening post. I think you did everything pretty much right.

[The Mad Moderate]

Thanks for the update perhaps that combined with the memory of getting shot at will be enough for this guy to get back on the straight and narrow.

[jimandyen]

Just to say that I agree with what you did.

Just out of curiosity did anyone ever recover the .45 slug ..?

[paulhailes]

Thanks for posting your story, I think the more first hand experience we read about the better prepared will be if we have to draw our weapon. At the same time I hope your post is the last we read for awhile, be safe everyone.

[gemini]

Combining replies to the last 4 posts:

Thanks guys. I'm hoping this was a 1 time event.

No, no one ever looked for the .45 slug. I have a good idea of the area to search, if I had a metal detector, but
even then, I'm not willing to spend any time looking. We did find the spent shell casing the next morning, and I threw
it in my brass bucket.
Stay cool.... heats on for today. Maybe 101 by 3:00pm.

[jimandyen]

Thanks for the reply gemini. Just wondering. One fear I have if I was in that situation (or another similar) would be where the bullet ends up. My wife and I go over different bad guy situations and then change what the background would be to see if we would make the same decisions. I guess more training on my part would help but I wonder sometimes if I would hesitate because of that. Am I alone in these thoughts..?