Shavano Park

[KRM45]

From a law enforcement perspective, approaching the car is always dangerous. Lets face it, someone does not have to be rummaging around for a gun. They may have it readily accessable. I am more than happy to watch someone rummage around in their console or glove box. That just gives me a free look for contraband. You would be amazed how dumb some dopers can be.

As far as conversation goes, I am much more comfortable with a stop when the person I approach seems comfortable. Casual conversation puts people at ease. that is good for both sides.

As far as rummaging around in a compartment, purse, bag, etc. where you happen to have a gun, bad idea. The OP had it right, wait and tell the officer what the deal is, then go from there. It's too bad the officer was not aware of the MPA, or chose to ignore it, but at least everyone was safe. If I happen to walk up on a driver rummaging around and I see the gun, my gun is coming out in a hurry.

[jbirds1210]

If I happen to walk up on a driver rummaging around and I see the gun, my gun is coming out in a hurry.

Amen. Surprises are a bad thing in the middle of the night.

[srothstein]

Follow-up questions (mostly for the cops on this board)...

Is it best to have the insurance in hand before an officer comes to your window? Or wait to be asked for it? Would rummaging through your glove compartment/console really be a bad idea while they're running your plates? In other words, how much time do you have before they approach your window? (Assume for a second, no gun in the compartment with the insurance)

This is really a roll of the dice. It depends on the officer. I don't mind your getting it out in advance, but I know some officers who prefer you to just sit there with your hands on the wheel until they can get to the car to see what you are reaching for.

Is it really true anything you say before being Mirandized is inadmissable? I have heard otherwise.

This is another of those disputable areas. The Miranda decision requires the warning if:

1. You are being asked questions about a crime

AND

2. Your are in police custody.

The question of whether or not you are in custody during a traffic stop gets a lot of debate. I believe you are since you are not free to leave. Others believe you are not since you are not being physically held and will be released shortly. I think the courts are going to look at the type of question asked. Do you know how fast you are going is probably not going to be held inadmissible on a speeding ticket. Do you have any drugs in the car may be held inadmissible if you truthfully answer yes.

And that is without getting into the other areas of how to admit inadmissible statements to rebut your courtroom testimony and such. And of course, anything you say without being asked by the officer (I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention when he states he clocked you speeding) is always admissible.

[redoregon]

Just sent the following to the Chief of the Shavano Park PD:

Sir,

I wanted to both thank you for the professionalism of one of your officers, and at the same time request that you check with your force and possibly correct a misunderstanding that they may have, based on the comment that one of your officers made to me during a traffic stop.

I was on my way to work the other morning, and made the decision not to brake hard for a yellow light in front of your station. On retrospect, I could probably have stopped for the light, but based on the time (0530), traffic levels (none) and my proximity to the light, I proceeded through.

One of your officers pulled me over, and I stopped in the Walgreens parking lot. Killed the engine and the radio, rolled down the window, and turned on the dome light.

The officer approached my vehicle and told me I "cut it pretty close on the yellow", which I admitted to and apologized. He asked for my license and proof of insurance, and I gave him my license. I then told him that my insurance card was in the console... with my Smith and Wesson .40 caliber Sigma pistol. He asked me if I had a CHL, and I answered that I did not. He said that I should not be carrying without one, and I answered that I was under the impression that it was legal to carry in my vehicle as well as between my residence and my vehicle.

He answered that it depended on how the law was interpreted, and that in Bexar County it was interpreted that I should not carry without a CHL.

He then asked me to step out of the vehicle and move back to the front of his vehicle while he called for backup. I did so, and when his backup arrived, he informed him of the situation, and said he was going to get the insurance paperwork out of the console. I gave permission, and he reached into the console and retrieved the paperwork, leaving the weapon alone.

He then wrote me a written warning, and asked me to take it easy and have a good day. I responded in kind.



I applaud the professionalism of the officer and his backup during the entire situation. He did not over-react or get aggressive, rude, or disrespectful in any way.

My concern, though, is his comment about carrying my defensive weapon without a CHL. I am scheduled for the CHL course in mid-July, but in the meantime I am allowed by Texas law to defend myself while driving. I base this on Texas HB 1815, signed by the Governor 06/15/2007 and effective on 7/1/07, which amended Section 46.02 of the Penal code and states that (paraphrased) a person may carry a weapon if he is on his premises or premises under his control, or inside of or directly enroute to his motor vehicle, unless the handgun is in plain view, the person is involved in criminal activity other than a Class C misdemeanor/traffic ordinance, prohibited by other law from possessing a firearm (felon, etc), or a member of a criminal street gang.

None of the above apply, so perhaps the officer was unaware of HB1815, in which case I ask that you ensure your officers are aware of the current status of Section 46.02.

Again, other than his comment about my ability to defend myself while in my vehicle, I applaud the officer's professionalism during the entire situation.

On a side note, if you don't mind, what is your opinion of my actions when initially pulled over? I have been told that most officers prefer that you stop the engine and the radio, roll down the window, and wait for the officer to approach before reaching for anything... License, insurance paperwork, etc. I feel it is best that the officer be totally at ease when approaching my window and for that reason, I'm not going to reach for anything until he requests it. Others I know have expressed the opinion that it's best to have your license and insurance ready for the officer when he arrives at your window. What would you recommend?


For your information, I can't read the signature on the warning, but the officer in question carries badge #3 from the Shavano Park PD. I've also included a link to HB1815 and Texas Penal Code Chapter 46 on which I base my position.

I await your response, and thank you for your time and your professional force.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/ ... 01815F.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... 046.00.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If/when he responds, I'll post it here.

[Keith B]

Nice letter. Will be very interested in seeing if he responds and what his response it.

[jbirds1210]

I agree, nice letter. Hopefully this will be read at shift briefing or at least cause the chief to read up on the law a bit.

Jason

[joe817]

I agree with the others. Well worded, polite letter. It will be interesting to read the PD chief's reply. Thanks for posting.

[A-R]

Agree - very well written letter conveying exactly the right tone. I would've debated with myself about including the officer's badge number (does this "throw him under the bus" at all?) and might have errored on the side of caution and waited to see if the chief asked for the information in a reply email. The difference is that without badge number, chief could - in his executive authority - just use the letter as a "hey guys, listen up" training opportunity for the whole force. But with badge number, seems he is obligated to discuss this directly with the particular officer, which could create unnecessary tension for the officer that you may not have intended? Again, this is a 50/50 toss up call to me. Don't think either choice gets this officer into very hot water at all.

I agree officer needs his views corrected. But not sure he deserves to be called into the teacher's office necessarily. He did not act upon his mistaken understanding of the law. You didn't go to jail. For all we know, he was just telling you to be careful - perhaps Bexar County DA is overzealous with gun cases like this (but officers obviously couldn't say it that bluntly)? Maybe the officer thought he was doing you a favor? I dunno, just playing devils' advocate.

In any regards, very well written letter and glad to hear you sent it.

[CompVest]

I would have included the badge number in the letter but would have deleted it from the forum post as a courtesy.

[redoregon]

I would have included the badge number in the letter but would have deleted it from the forum post as a courtesy.

If he had been a total jerk I would have, just to stem any attacks, but since he was so professional outside of his one off opinion, I decided to leave it in.

[redoregon]

No response as of yet. Was hopeful, but...

[jsimmons]

Meh... he wasn't all adamant about it, just kinda expressing an opinion, and he didn't take it any farther... didn't touch the weapon, move it, check to see if it was loaded, or anything else. If he had pushed it farther, then yeah, I probably would go that route. If I did in this situation, he'd probably just jump the next guy that much harder.

Consider it advice... if you're carrying without a CHL, carry your insurance somewhere else! :)

Even if you *do* have a CHL, keep your gun/insurance separated. BTW, they don't have to ask for insurance cards anymore because insurance status comes up on their screen when they run your plates.

[redoregon]

True enough, but there are some LEs out there that wouldn't miss the chance to rack up another ticket if you couldn't produce *proof* of insurance...

[jbirds1210]

True enough, but there are some LEs out there that wouldn't miss the chance to rack up another ticket if you couldn't produce *proof* of insurance...

Insurance information is not available for all insured drivers. It is still necessary to carry your proof of financial responsibility.

I would personally like to see someone's proof of insurance if I am involved in a minor accident with them. I took a sweet little old lady's word during IKE and got burned for my deductible.

[jsimmons]

I'm talking about the cops and during a routine traffic stop. When they pull you over, they already know whether or not you have insurance, so they don't actually have to ask you for the card.